Are Fat Jokes Simply Unacceptable?
November 30th, 2009
Dawn French thinks so.
“It is no more acceptable to make a fat joke than it is to make a gay joke… People need to learn to take everyone as they are.”
What comedians can joke about is an increasingly treacherous minefield. Rowan Atkinson campaigned against proposed laws targeting “incitement to religious hatred” because he feared that they would prevent jokes about religion.
What do you think–race, size, genocide, aristocrats, 9/11… are there some things we just should never joke about? Or is all fair when it comes to comedy?
Thanks Amaxfield for the link!
Posted by mo pie
Filed under: Celebrities, Dawn French, Humor, Question, Tidbit
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I’m not really sure how I feel, I think with humor it’s so subjective. I’m not in support of there being any sort of restrictions on what you can joke about, but I think there’s a line (however fine) between the joke being mean-spirited and just funny; Because really, in a lot of ways, most humor is based on *someone* suffering. But the question is whether you are rubbing it in too much or not.
The thing is, there is such thing as a funny fat joke. It’s just that fat jokes are usually the blunt instrument of comedy — lowest common denominator kind of thing. It’s such an easy target that no one really puts effort into making the jokes *good*
As one of my gay friends has expressed to me – he is looking forward to the day when people can make gay jokes the same way people make race or gender jokes today – with casual recognition that its just a stereotype, we can all laugh and move on with our lives. Most people who laugh at a joke about how White men can’t dance recognize that there are certainly white men who are capable of dancing. Yet, they can still laugh.
I think that all jokes targeted at a group as a whole – fat, thin, Black, Hispanic, White, Asian, men, women, gays – need to be said with a level of discretion and taste. But I think the problem lies more with the culture responding to the joke rather than the joke itself. If the joke is taken as truth rather than farce or satire and it reinforces negative opinions on a group as a whole, its a problem. But you don’t ban the joke. Banning the joke won’t stop people from being ignorant and biased.
There are delicate, non-hateful ways to make a lot of jokes. However, I have yet to see a fat joke that was done that way.
I’m not a big fan of targeting a group of people in a hateful way.
I’m torn on this. On the one hand, I think there should be no restrictions on comedy as I think it can be a very powerful political tool. On the other hand, I think it’s unfair to pick on a group of people for something they can’t control. No social mores are being challenged by a fat joke.
I think, more than anything, fat jokes are lazy comedy. We eat too much, we don’t exercise, ba doom tish. A comedian who relies on a fat joke is lazy and needs to step up their game.
The showrunner of “Leverage”, who was also a comedian, said that his #1 rule for comedy was “Punch up.” A fat person making a fat joke about how society sees them is different to a skinny person making a joke about a group of people who are less socially valued than they are. Same with white people making jokes about black people, men making jokes about those crazy women, etc.
So yes, I think fat jokes are likely to be lazy, stupid comedy, designed to get a “hurr hurr” from a lazy, compliant audience. They shouldn’t be “banned”, they should be scorned and ignored.
When I used to watch ComicView on BET about 100 years ago, there were often comedians that brought up fat, however, it was often in the context of fat women being better lovers, better wives, etc. I never felt bothered by those jokes.
I can certainly see how comedy is the final frontier – the last place where political incorrectness is allowed and embraced. When we start saying don’t talk about this or that – what will be left? Perhaps Gallagher could make a come back and smash some watermelons.
For the question “Is all fair when it comes to comedy”? I think it would be better for people to just let their money do the talking, as we do with everything else. Go to see funny comedians who craft clever jokes, and scorn bad ones. Making rules about what is taboo is too broad for me. Overall, I can imagine how a requirement for political correctness would have effected the Dave Chapelle Show, or Chris Rock standup. Thanks, but no thanks!
What lilacsigil said, and also: fat jokes generally aren’t funny because they aren’t jokes at all. “Hurr hurr fat people are fat because [hateful stereotype]” is the entirety of the joke.
I think everything’s fair game for humour…as long as it’s funny. There’s a quote (from some comedian or other)along the lines of, “If it’s funny, it’s not offensive, if it’s offensive, it’s not funny”.
The thing is with fat jokes, they’re often not funny, because they’re lazy (“like fat people ha ha” – would be a typical example).
I’m happy to joke about any topic (though I would be careful of the company I’m in and whether people might be hurt by the joke)… one of my favourite jokes is also deeply offensive in terms of subject matter(it’s a Sarah Silverman one), but it’s the way that subject matter’s twisted into new funny shapes that makes it work.
If the joke is “ha ha fat people like cake” then…there’s no twisting, no ironising of the subject. If the joke is “I’m fat hahaha what a porker I am I hate myself”…then it’s just sad. Unless the comedian made something out of that self-hatred that was in itself funny.
As various people have said, the stereotype is not enough, you need to put a spin on it.
I don’t believe any jokes are off limits, it depends on how you use them. If you use them to target a particular group or groups, then that’s really off.
However, comedians like Sascha Baron Cohen, or Matt Stone and Trey Parker, do that thing where NOBODY is off limits that shine a light on people’s attitudes. SBC tends to pick a theme and run with it each movie/character. Sexism for Borat, homophobia for Bruno, racism for Ali G. He’s highly offensive, but he makes people think about what they say and their attitudes. Stone/Parker do the same thing with their films and South Park.
However there are so-called comedians out there who just relish in “picking on” gender, weight, sexuality, religion etc. The one I can’t stand is that tosser with the “dead terrorist” puppet. That is not humour, it’s not intelligent and it’s sick.
I guess what I am saying is that it all depends on context.
I got in a fight with my boyfriend about this – there’s a lot of humor I just don’t find funny because it picks on people. I finally came up with where my strong gut reaction comes from. Comedians who make fun of oppressed groups (fat people, the elderly, women, etc.) are just like those kids in school who pick on the unpopular kids so that the popular kids will think they are cool.
I agree that no kind of humor should be “banned,” but I won’t watch something I find offensive, and I speak up about it if I’m in a group situation.
I get really frustrated about “political incorrectness,” because to me it just seems like white men getting bent out of shape because they can’t joke about oppressed groups anymore. And then when they do, they think they’re being so edgy. “Look at me, I’m making fun of [oppressed group] and throwing off the bonds of political correctness!” And the only people who think that’s funny are the others with unexamined privilege. Who, unfortunately, are the majority of the population.
I’m torn on this all the time, because I quite often DO find “offensive” humor funny. I’m a fat feminist who listens to Howard Stern every day, religiously. And bust a gut (no pun intended) laughing…even when he’s picking on “fat” celebs (in quotes because the celebs he picks on are almost never actually fat).
Humor is subjective, and I don’t think we should tell any comedian what they can and can’t joke about–if something offends us, we can just not listen. Change the channel, don’t buy a ticket to the show, etc.
Hey, people: LIGHTEN UP! Almost all comedy is funny because it’s at someone else’s expense: the ultimate schadenfreude (I’m not sure the spelling is correct but you know what it means). When it comes to getting a laugh I believe that NOTHING should be off-limits, save the savaging of a specific individual (one exception:politicians of whatever party). I have done material about homicides (the weirder they are, the funnier the stuff you can get from them); politics; religion and yes, the occasional fat joke at the expense of a relative nearly 3 times my size. Have found over the years that death can offer up some great comic possibilities (my own mother, God rest her, just weeks before she died, told me to read “The Loved One” because: “It’ll tell you what to expect and you’ll get a kick out of it”.
So – when it comes to giving people the ultimate gift of laughter, any source that works for YOU is a good one. You don’t think something’s funny? Don’t use it.
I’m really happy to see the “Punch Up” concept explained. I do stand up and I think it’s something a lot of other comedians don’t get.
A lot of the time, we talk about “owning it”. I can make fat jokes (not that I would), because I’m fat, and I own it. Same with black jokes and woman jokes.
I don’t want there to be any limits in comedy; I think the moment you try to corral something as being off limits, some comedians will just aim straight for it.
And it makes me angry, because there are all these young, white, male, skinny, relatively privileged comedians around, and they get up and do fat jokes, woman jokes, Asian jokes, rape jokes, etc. and want a cookie for being edgy.
And it’s like, that’s not edgy, that’s the motherfreaking status quo.
Just like with religion, there are jokes and there are jokes. One type is crude, nasty, and unfunny. The other is clever, and while it has a bit of a sting, is just funny. Unfortunately, most comedians (amateur and professional) gravitate to the former because they’re easy. Few have enough wit (like Rowan Atkinson or Ben Elton) to make a clever, sophisticated joke.
Wow. NO. No kind of humor should be banned or limited, as that could only be a harnessing of first amendment rights. However, if any kind of a joke gets you so angry that you feel the humor in question should be banned, you need to exercise your rights and NOT PARTICIPATE. Don’t watch or listen to work that you find offensive. Also, stop referring to “fat” comedy as “lazy” or “unimaginative.” As comedians and artists have performed for hundreds and thousands of years, there isn’t a single form of comedy that can be construed as “original.”
I disagree that all humor is at someone’s expense. Look at Eddie Izzard–he hardly makes fun of anyone, and when he does, it’s only people with power, like the Queen, or British colonizers. And his stuff is hilarious. He is a transvestite, and he makes jokes about it, but not at his expense. It’s possible to make fat jokes that aren’t demeaning. Of course nothing is off-limits and people can joke about whatever they want, but anyone can also exercise one’s right to not consume it, and to even speak against it. Ignoring or criticizing someone doesn’t take away their right to free speech.
I think it depends largely on the intention of the joke. I think the articles in The Onion tend to make a point – for example, I have no problems with the one that you linked. I can’t imagine even someone who hates fat people honestly advocating suicide for everyone over X lbs., so hopefully such a person would recognize how ridiculous the article is and consider their own opinions.
As other people said, I take the most issue when there’s just no creativity, it’s purely laughing at people.
Sort of off topic, but I have similarly mixed feelings about making jokes about fat or “fat” celebrities. For example, I’d be more opposed to making jokes about, say, Kathy Bates but in favor of jokes about Oprah or Kirstie Alley. If you put yourself out there and tell the world to look at your weight, let the jokes fly.
I agree with what some other people have said about there being a line to be crossed. It would be hypocritical for anyone to say, “Fat jokes are not okay.” but wouldn’t say that about blonde jokes, and any other jokes at someone else’s expense. I would be lying if I sat here and said I never laughed at a fat joke or even told one or two in my life. Most people have. I have to admit, jokes are funny, no matter the subject. I used to get really pissed off about jokes stereotyping women, you know like “Why are womens feet so small? So they can be closer to the kitchen counter.” But I have learned to lighten up and laugh at jokes. I do think there is a point to which jokes can go too far. It all depends on the circumstance.
creolerose1115, most fat jokes ARE lazy, unimaginative, and unoriginal.
Why do I say this? Because if you’re speaking as a thin person who has never been fat, you don’t own the material, have never lived as a fat person, you have the stereotypes of fat people and the privilege of a thin person – so you kinda know nothing about the fat experience besides, “fat people like cake”. Or look at “fatty, being all fat.”
Lazy, unimaginative, and unoriginal. Nothing I can’t get from an email forward, or People of Walmart, or Bob at the water cooler, or every source of mainstream entertainment EVER.
If I, as a fat person, want to do jokes about being fat, I can get all deep into the nitty gritty. I live that shit every day. I’ve got details on top of details.
Get onstage with a unique and funny perspective on something. At least try, otherwise, what’s the point?
As a comedian I would probably be inclined to say that I don’t think comedy should be restricted, just like I don’t think a person’s speech should be restricted according the rights we’re given. But as a fat woman I have to say I agree with the poster talking about “speaking with our money”. I find that as a comedian AND an audience member I really find jokes that are just obvious judgements of groups of people to be not very funny. I like original comedy and I even limit my OWN fat jokes because I don’t want to be a “fat comic” or a “woman comic” or a “white comic”. I want to be a FUNNY COMIC. And i’m fairly sure most of the audience wants a funny comic too.
Hi there! I’m really happy to have found this blog. Have been out of the Fat-O-Sphere for some time now and was just looking at what I have been missing.
Anyway, regarding your question…. I certainly agree that comedy and humor is something subjective. Which is why I think that there shouldn’t be restrictions as to what people, especially comedians, can joke about. There is a very fine line (like the first commenter mentioned) between a mean joke and a funny joke; that line shouldn’t be crossed.
Making any kind of joke shouldn’t be a desperate attempt to be funny. Like resorting to green jokes, fat jokes, racial jokes, etc. One should try to stay within the bounds of being a creative comedienne.
I do agree with the first three commentators, but sometimes I think people just need to loosen up. Then again some comedians can be way to offensive without being funny, so there is a line, it’s very thin, but it’s there.
I may be biased as well though. I joke about literally everything, good and bad, offensive and non offensive….aaand I hate censorship. The thing to me with fat jokes though is that they’re so overused and it’s always the same ones over and over and over again. It’s like sometimes I feel like Cerano, I mean, if you’re going to make fun of me, be funny!
When is a joke not a joke? Ans: At any time when the butt of the joke is unable or unwilling to take it as a joke. Jokes are usually more acceptable when they are clever, draw attention to general truths in a new light and are not destructive. Joking is a living art form and a very good indication of the state of mind of the person presenting the joke. Sick people make sick jokes and just because they are self depracating does not mean that the person making the joke is having a lot of fun. Ms. French is just letting the rest of us know that she’s either tired of being a big girl or feeling more vulnerable about it all. Why the hell the rest of us have to use this to try to straight jacket all the fun out of the world I don’t know! To Dawn: Rest assured that we love you just as you are and appreciate all the time and energy you have given to the World of Fun. Making rude noises is hilarious when you are six, but a bloody nuisance when you’r 60. Let’s leave it at that!
Is this really the same Dawn French who has based an extremely lucrative career on being ‘Comically fat’, I wonder?
As long as you make fun of everyone equally. Or, conversely, as long as you make fun of something while showing your love and respect for it. Both are possible.
I thought the SNL skit on Tiger Woods and his wife was hilarious!
Is this really the same Dawn French who has based an extremely lucrative career on being ‘Comically fat’, I wonder?
Good point.
Hi. I just read your post on comedy and size. I am actually a fat woman who is also a stand up comic. A large part of what I talk about is related to my body but I put it out there in a way that is intended to be not only funny (there is humor in everything) but also affirming. In other words – I’m fat, get over it. I will ocassionally have other women come up to me after shows and say “you’re so funny..there’s no need to talk about your weight” – which totally amazes me. It’s so taboo in so many ways. Short answer is – some guy making obscene fat jokes at the expense of others is not acceptable at all. It happens alot though and in some ways, what I do is in response to this. Sort of “take that asshole.” A fat woman finding humor in her own situation and life can be empowering and affirming. You have to own who you are and that encompasses size. Roseanne Barr once said about audiences “they may not agree with what I’m saying, but they are hearing it at least” – and that is how we take control and ownership over who we are. Thanks for the post!
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