MamaV Responds
I wanted to make sure we all had a chance to read MamaV/Heather’s response to the concerns about We Are The Real Deal. It’s in the comments here:
I’ve read, and listened, and reread and listened some more…and here’s my take;
1) Privilege: Of course thin privilege exists and is wrong and unfair. Fat discrimination exists and is simply inexcusable. BUT–so is reverse discrimination and “ranking†the right to express body image issues.
I will have a lot more fuel to add to the fire, along with my contributors. Watch for QA to be posted Thurs., get your daggers sharpened!
2) No moderation: I have no interest in a nicey-nice-don’t-worry-be-happy blog. SP is meant to be a safe place, that allows individuals to express themselves in a non-threatening environment. WATRD is meant to be an open place, that allows us to see the brutal reality, no matter how offending, hurtful, and irrelevant. There is space for both and you are free to choose which you are in the mood to read.
For the record, comments were not closed to shut off the conversation (they are back open BTW), I meant to direct the comments to the apology post because it made logical sense to me. I am really hard core on complete and total freedom of speech, regardless of how brutal it may get (and as you can see I am taking the brunt of it) so I am sorry this was perceived as an attempt to cut off your voice…feel free to continue posting your comments, the conversation is still in full roar.
3) Intellectual snobbery: Ripping on grammatical errors and type’os is so tired. My style ain’t changin’ (yes, I said ain’t). Plus doesn’t this send the message that one must articulate themselves at a set standard and/or level of education or risk being criticized?
4) Kate is a gem. She is a bright, courageous woman. Did I miss the chapter on thin privilege? Did you skip the part about not judging other women? Glazed right past the advice to “get over yourself and stop thinking everyone is focused on you and your flaws?â€
5) Barbie comments -sarcasm that bombed…since this was taken literally by most, I sincerely apologized for the Barbie related statements (only). I mistakenly thought my sarcasm would be quite obvious since I am a 40 year mom, with lumps, bumps, zits, and wrinkles just like 99% of the female population—except I love who I am and I am not afraid to say I am beautiful. Why are you?
Bottomline, we can all continue to out-snark each other….or we can attempt to listen and learn. I have already learned a great deal from reading all of the comments, knowing Kate, reading her book, and now reading the other blogs that have been recommended to me (such as this one).
Are you willing to explore the other side? I hope so, because it is quite obvious the ladies here and at SP are leading the FA effort, and WATRD is on your side whether you believe it or not—and whether you want us to or not.
I am glad my Barbie post let us all cut to the chase….aren’t you?
Heather
aka mamaV
3) All I can say about the issue of “typeo’s” is that I’m an editor and an English teacher, and I read more than my fair share of poor grammar in my freshman comp papers, where it is in fact my job to help my students learn how to communicate better, which includes grammatical correctness. The point is that bad grammar gets in the way of what you’re trying to communicate.
I respect my students for having intellectual abilities that differ from mine, and don’t consider myself a snob in that regard, and certainly can forgive a mistake or two, and certainly am not perfect myself, and certainly don’t care if you use “ain’t” or other slang in your blog; however, I’m not going to bother to read a blog where the editor is proud of not understanding apostrophes. It is certainly a skill that, IF YOU WANT TO BE A WRITER, isn’t that difficult to learn. And I think you owe it to your readers to learn it. So maybe I’m a snob after all?
Anyway, I just had to address that part; I know you guys will want to address the rest.
Posted by mo pie
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First, I’m with you on the grammar point.
Second, I drifted away from WATRD right after I saw there were going to be at least two bloggers who did variations on “Losing weight is soooo hard… If only I had morrrrre will power… I want to be thinnnnnner… I hate myself at this size… ”
I could go back and read my own journals from the 80s if I wanted to revisit that stuff.
I’m sticking with BFD and Manolo for the Big Girl where I’m treated to beautiful fashion and witty tales of adventure.
I’m afraid you lost me at “reverse discrimination”.
I mean, seriously.
Especially considering your continued attempts to set up WATRD as a body image reparation resource for “all women”, I find your repeated displays of the depth of your ignorance on the intersectionality issues involved, for lack of a better word, appalling.
I’ll let the bloggers address the – again, continued – issues of your “type-o”s. You’re not just a fake activist. You’re a fake writer as well.
Adios, Barbie.
#5 is a backhanded apology if ever there was one. Apparently we’re idiots since we didn’t catch the blatant sarcasm, and have only our own poor self-esteem to blame for being offended when she calls herself “the goddess you’ll never be”.
I accept that she didn’t come across the way she meant to and that she regrets that. But when so many people take something you say the wrong way, it’s not them – it’s you.
My bad, Mo. I thought you’d given her space to respond on your blog, and that diatribe ^^ in response was directed at her, not you.
*sigh*
“Are you willing to explore the other side?”
Um… the other side of WHAT, exactly? The other side of body positivity? Where you… don’t… feel positively… about your body?
No. No I’m not.
Littlem, yes, I wanted to make sure we all had a chance to respond to Heather here in the comments. Addressing her is fine; I wasn’t confused!
Wow, she is so unwilling to *get* it my head hurts.
And the whole painting safe space as a tra-la-la happy land, and unmoderated troll-fests as brutal reality that’s oh-so-edgy–yeah, well, *yawn.* Wevs.
1) Still, obviously, does NOT GET what privilege means. That’s like “I’m sorry I slapped you BUT you just don’t know what it’s like to be me.”
It wasn’t that long ago that I was called out for my ignorance right there on SP. I could’ve cried about it but instead I read and learned from it. I advise her to do the same.
3)”Plus doesn’t this send the message that one must articulate themselves at a set standard and/or level of education or risk being criticized?”
Um… yes… yes it does. What exactly is wrong with that?
5) Much like the “official apology” this is half-assed and backhanded so sorry, try again. Preferably, after fully understanding what she did wrong. See #1.
“I am not afraid to say I am beautiful. Why are you?”
Is demanding reading comprehension also a sign of intellectual snobbery? What part of “fuck inner beauty” doesn’t she understand?
“Are you willing to explore the other side?â€
Um… the other side of WHAT, exactly? The other side of body positivity? Where you… don’t… feel positively… about your body?
Seriously. If I wanted to listen to women who hate their bodies and want to lose weight go off about how terrible being fat is, there’s like every single other site women go to on the internet to frequent. Surely presenting a site as being about body positivity should entail some responsibility for maintaining a site that is, you know, actually positive about the bodies people have.
Okay, I’ll take on #2, quoting from a comment I posted over at WATRD last night:
“You’d have more credibility in my eyes now if you had shown ANY willingness to respond to the patently cruel and abusive anti-fat comments that have appeared here because of your devotion to a moderation free comments policy. But you haven’t done that. Jelly’s question — which isn’t nearly as harsh as some of the anti-fat, anti-pluralistic shit that has been slung here — is the only comment I’ve seen you call out as unacceptable to you.
“You want to let everyone comment for fear of the ‘slippery slope’ of censorship, well, then that’s your choice. But you also have the choice to respond to abusive comments with your own comments saying: ‘We’re letting you say this here because we’re committed to completely free and open discourse, but in the spirit of complete and open discourse I want to tell you that the kind of abusive bullshit you’re spouting is emphatically NOT COOL with me.’ ”
As for #3, I guess my own commitment to using grammar for clear communication can be signaled by the fact that I just changed double quotation marks to single quotation marks in that excerpt above, just to make sure the nested quote were clearly understandable.
And as for #5, when Heather says “I love who I am and I am not afraid to say I am beautiful. Why are you?” what do you think she means? Is she upset because I’m quote-unquote afraid to say she’s beautiful? Or is she assuming that I’m unable to see my OWN beauty, because of COURSE no one with an ounce of self-esteem could EVER find ANYTHING wrong with Heather’s attitude….
It’s enough to drive a gal deep into capsrage.
You know, I went there right after Kate announced she’d be blogging with them, and that was my one and only visit. If I want to read a bunch of body-shaming, pro-ana (however veiled) bullshit, I’ll pick up Cosmopolitan.
And having no moderation on any site that discusses women’s issues is absolutely ludicrous. All it does is lay out the welcome mat for the trolls.
I’m not afraid to think I’m beautiful, and part of that is not patronizing the websites of women who seem to think I’ll never be the goddess they are.
Inclusivity FAIL.
That blog is just trifling. I feel dissed and dismissed by MammaV, and thrown back to junior high school. The fact that she’s forty just makes me even more angry because I feel like I could excuse the non-apology and the unwarranted ire in someone my own age, but I’ve known more open-minded college freshmen. I cannot excuse the same behavior in someone 17 years my senior.
If I want to read a bunch of body-shaming, pro-ana (however veiled) bullshit, I’ll pick up Cosmopolitan.
Amen, sister. ;)
You CANNOT have a site that is body positive and inclusive when pro-ED talk is allowed to go not only censored, but completely unchecked, in the comments.
With this post, Heather has effectively shoved BOTH feet into her too-large mouth. Wow.. talk about insensitive, narcissistic and disregarding of the experiences of others. Heather is “aware” that thin privilege exists? Last week, she didn’t even know what “thin privilege” meant!
“Last week, she didn’t even know what “thin privilege†meant!”
But now she knows it is unfair. Poor fatties!
I wish I could add something clever and witty as my fellow posters above, but I will say AMEN to everything everyone has already said!
That site is a COMPLETE waste of space. I’ve never found more foul, repugnant, loathsome people in one place.
Reverse discrimination- Does NOT HAPPEN. It doesn’t matter if you’re singled out for being white, blonde, thin, conventionally attractive, Christian, middle-to-upper-class and you catch crap for it, that doesn’t change that anyone from a minority/marginalized group STILL CATCHES MORE CRAP THAN YOU CAN EVER IMAGINE. She doesn’t understand the scale. Just because someone once commented on her privilege, she sees that as an attack on her PERSONALLY, and that’s JUST AS BAD as those poor fatties or POC get, so they need to just get over it.
I apologize for the caps for emphasis, but ARRGGGH. It’s not about ranking rights, it’s about learning the scale of privilege and where you fall on it!
Yep, utter load of tripe from her. Just like the blog. She just doesn’t get it and she doesn’t feel the need TO get it. Funny that she can’t see the privilege that is holding her up.
@ Lindsay B.
Yep. It’s like people who feel that being accused of being racist is worse than being non-white in a racist society.
A lot of people called mamaV out on the privilege issue, so I’m not sure if #4 is in response to this comment I made over on “A Bit of Clarification” at Shapely Prose:
“I wasn’t totally surprised to find that she hadn’t made it to the chapter of FA that talks about the difference between approaching an issue from a privileged position versus a non-privileged or oppressed one (like why it doesn’t fly to call fat discrimination the last acceptable form of prejudice.) Yes, her voice is legitimate, but there is a difference between a thin person promoting body acceptance and a fat person promoting body acceptance. Her response, being more of a knee-jerk reaction than a thoughtful discussion, didn’t seem to grasp that.”
In case it is, I wanted to address it. I haven’t read all of the follow up comments, so I’m not sure if someone called me out for saying something objectionable (indeed I only just got to that “chapter” as well), but as of this writing I stand by the conclusion I drew:
“I think when you invite people from different perspectives to blog together, you don’t always have to agree with them, but you do have to do more than pay lip service to their experience (or you get tokenism). It seems like mamaV pays lip service to FA, but hasn’t made the effort to understand what it’s really about, or how it might apply to her. That’s ok for her personally, but not for her blogger persona, which carries a different set of responsibilities.”
I could take on #1 here, but since there are others on here who will do a much better job, I’ll just try to clarify what I said earlier: MamaV, I am not judging you personally, as I said. I in fact believe that your heart is in the right place, and you seem to be a good person trying to do some good. Criticism is not the same as judgment, or how would we ever disagree with one another?
What I was trying to point out was that I believe you have a responsibility as a blogger to understand and acknowledge the validity of other viewpoints espoused by your blog, as FA was until Kate quit, I suppose, and if you have a disagreement, to voice it cogently and respectfully. I thought you didn’t grasp that thin privilege puts you in a different (less oppressed) position vis-a-vis body acceptance than a fat person. Maybe you do, but I haven’t heard you make that case. So far the only “argument” I’ve seen you make is that reverse discrimination is wrong, and Jelly’s comment was invalid and mean bc your personal suffering as a “Barbie” is legitimate. The FA crowd then tried to direct your attention to the counter-argument that privilege doesn’t invalidate your suffering, but it does mean that you don’t encounter the same barrage of hate as a fat person/person of color/differently abled person just because of your body, and not having dealt with that, your perspective might be lacking when it comes to body acceptance. It doesn’t mean your voice doesn’t have every right to be heard. I can speak out against able-ism; as a currently-abled person I might even consider myself a valuable ally. I might even feel like I suffer at the hands of a society that prizes perfect health, but I don’t imagine for a second that I know what it’s like to navigate society in a wheelchair, and for that, my voice won’t be as strong as the voice of someone who does.
I guess I just sort of took on #1 after all…please enlighten me if I screwed it up.
Also, I fail to see how “get over yourself and stop thinking everyone is focused on you and your flaws?†is related to my criticism so I guess that is unrelated to my comment. And sorry if I was presumptuous and you were responding to something else entirely.
I’m excited to see the upcoming post about privilege. How will the word be defined? Will the existence of privilege be up for debate? Will the post be about how hard it is to have privilege? I can’t wait to find out.
Heather is reacting as many privileged people do when they first hear mention of privilege: with characteristic defensiveness. I know I reacted defensively when I first heard it in college all those years ago. Unlike Heather, however, I took time to listen and I realized that what was not being said is that X, Y and Z were handed to me on a silver platter for the simple fact that I’m white, but that my whiteness gave me certain advantages that helped enable me to achieve X, Y and Z. When Heather hears talk of privilege, she hears that her experiences aren’t valid and takes it personally, when in reality, what is being said is that her experiences aren’t universal. Heather can’t manage to see past her blinders to realize that people experience weight-related stigma in vastly different ways and until she does, the entire site will remain a joke in the eyes of many. It’s a shame, too, because I think all of the panelists had good intentions for the site.
I absolutely agree about typos – they make a writer look sloppy more than uneducated – like she doesn’t care about what she is writing enough to even proofread and correct errors. Ain’t is fine, it’s slang – it’s poor spelling, poor grammar, and incorrect punctuation that are a problem. I know that this probably makes me a snob, but I cringe at blogs that contain these mistakes and if they happen too often, I unsubscribe. Life is too short to read bad writing.
“Heather can’t manage to see past her blinders to realize that people experience weight-related stigma in vastly different ways and until she does, the entire site will remain a joke in the eyes of many.”
Do you think that Heather doesn’t realize that people experience stigma differently, or that she does realize this (the hosts did pledge to increase diversity on the panel) but doesn’t think that her perspective has less legitimacy than someone who has had it vastly worse than she has? Does it? Is legitimacy the word for which I am looking (@all you grammar hounds)?
You make a good point, Forestroad. I certainly hope that it’s an inability to see past her blinders, because then there’s a chance that she might be enlightened. But I also readily concede that it may very well be an insensitivity to the validity and legitimacy of alternate perspectives that’s really at issue here.
Can anyone else figure out what the heck she is trying to say with #4?
Sarah, what I’m getting from that is what I’m getting from the whole “apology”: MamaV thinks we don’t like her because we’re jealous because she’s thin, and that’s not fair.
Not because to call the site “body positive” given what is posted there is a joke; not because her original post was dismissive and demeaning; not because her first apology was unbelievably petty and self-centered. No, we must be jealous of her because she is thin, because, after all, don’t all fat women want to be thin? And, that’s such an unfair reason to criticize her, and we should just stop. Kate would want us to.
I mean, honestly what I’m getting is:
Fat women are criticizing me!
I am skinny!
Therefore, the fat women must be criticizing me BECAUSE I’m skinny!
#4 is yet another example of sloppy writing standing in the way of her intended message, whatever that is. MamaV, if you are reading this: when we ask you to be more careful with the way you write (and several readers have asked you this, repeatedly) it is not out of intellectual snobbery, it’s just that we really, really want to understand what you are trying to say, but your writing “style” sometimes turns out to be an obstacle instead of a vehicle for your ideas. We do not say this as a personal attack (at least most of us don’t) but as a bit of constructive criticism intended to help you communicate successfuly with the community you are trying to address.
@ Sarah: I’d guess #4 means something like “I may have missed the chapter on thin privilege, but maybe you skipped the part about not judging other women”. The part about “getting over yourself”… who knows? Is Heather saying that to Jelly? Is she quoting Jelly saying that to her? Is she quoting the way society talks to thin women? To fat women? Is that the way she talks to thin and/or fat women? No idea, but why she brought Kate into it is anybody’s guess.
I think she missed the point that other women shouldn’t be judged based on their bodies, not that other women shouldn’t or can’t be judged on the content of their words.
Number 4 is as baffling to me as it is to you, Sarah. But at least it wasn’t full of typos. (Yes, typos matter. For the record, I think it’s pretty telling that there are rarely any typos here or at Shapely Prose or any of the other prominent FA websites, both in the posts themselves and in the comments, but WAtRD was FULL OF THEM.)
And I love how all of a sudden, when everyone’s called Heather out on her privilege, only NOW does she have “lumps and bumps and zits.” Convenient. It must be nice to be beautiful in a totally whitebread non-threatening kind of way.
To clarify, my last sentence was total sarcasm. Total, total sarcasm. Even if I was actually jealous, I wouldn’t want to look like her if it meant being so privileged I didn’t even know what that word meant.
It’s the oddest thing–I feel pity for her. She seems like she’s gotten into something that was over her head and she doesn’t understand. I do want to hear what Miss Lori and the other posters there have to say though.
I can’t let go of the willful characterization of Shapely Prose being a “nicey-nice” hearts and flowers fairyland where we all fart sparkly rainbows and never disagree or argue.
There is debate and rigorous dialog on SP almost daily. As I’ve said before, there is a fair amount of “right on!” and “I’ve been trying to articulate this for two decades and you finally succeeded where I failed” on the comments.
But there is regularly incisive commentary and pretty intense conversation on SP. I must insist that those who accuse Kate of squelching dissent or painting her cyber sandbox pink with touchy-feely warmth are either A) totally ignorant of the site, B) casualties of the well-defined moderation policy or C) trying to stir shit up.
SP comments policy allows for a lot of freedom. It doesn’t allow personal attacks, Dude Nation Ambassadors swooping in to tell the little ladies how it really is or any willful disrepect and politically incorrect in the comments.
And if MamaV is really for straight-up, no-holds barred freedom of speech, I’d like to volunteer her to sit in the middle row of a theater and have someone run in and yell “Fire!” Will she still be all for it when someone is trampling her?
Freedom of speech has limits. For good reason.
Finally, fatties already live in the brutal real world. She’s not doing us any favors by not moderating her comments.
She lost me at the words reverse discrimination.
Just no.
I am in total agreement about how un-thought-through mama V’s understanding of privilege remains.
however…
often I see people’s spelling and grammar being mocked when really it is the content of their comment that is being disagreed with and it drives me mad. I am dyslexic woman, a fucking smart dyslexic woman and I hesitate before commenting, particularly on SP. I understand FA as a moral argument and not a spelling test. The internet is the only way that most of us can access a fat accepting world and smugness and nitpicking is a barrier to people engaging fully with the fatosphere.
I understand (it is only natural) that for many blogers and commenters written language is something that they are skilled at and take great pleasure from. However this shouldn’t be at the exclusion of those who are not and do not and yet still want to be part of this.
come on, you’re better than this!
h.x
“Plus doesn’t this send the message that one must articulate themselves at a set standard and/or level of education or risk being criticized?”
I know it’s been said, but it bears repeating: I do not see a problem with propagating this message.
Hayley, you make an excellent point, and I really do not want to alienate anybody by being a militant grammarian. I’ve taught many students with learning disabilities and/or ESL issues and many of them have to work extremely hard just to be on an even footing with native English speakers without learning disabilities, and I respect the hell out of that.
I agree that nitpicking grammar can be a copout way to avoid the content, but in Heather’s case, 1. Her content also sucks; and 2. She wants to be taken seriously AS A WRITER. A writer doesn’t have to be perfect, but a writer should learn the difference between a plural and a possessive. I’ll stand by that.
“But there is regularly incisive commentary and pretty intense conversation on SP. I must insist that those who accuse Kate of squelching dissent …….are either A) totally ignorant of the site, B) casualties of the well-defined moderation policy or C) trying to stir shit up. ”
I don’t fit into any of those categories. I read SP for quite a long time and occasionally commented. I don’t anymore. Why?
The hosts of that site promote specious ideas that have little evidence to back them up. They like to trumpet that “some studies have shown that fat can protect against “infections, cancer, lung disease, heart disease, osteoporosis, anemia, high blood pressure, rheumatoid arthritis and type 2 diabetes.â€
The problem is, most of the evidence out there suggests the opposite–that being fat puts one at greater risk of hypertension, diabetes, etc.
I’m fat and I deserve to be treated like anyone else–that’s where I agreed with FA. But I can’t quite delude myself into thinking my weight isn’t going to cause problems for me. Odds are it will.
Kate does squelch dissent. It’s her web site and she has every right to do so. But let’s not pretend SP is someplace with a free flowing exchange of ideas. Try and discuss the results of one of those studies she likes to cite. Why don’t you provide links to the many more studies which contradict them? You know quite well there what the results would be.
“Finally, fatties already live in the brutal real world. She’s not doing us any favors by not moderating her comments.”
Maybe I’m just perverse but that’s one of the things I like about WATRD. It is kind of a free for all at times, but there isn’t a specific point of view that is bolstered by selectively editing comments. One can say what one actually thinks, without having to consider whether it dovetails with the hosts’ point of view.
I’m fat and I deserve to be treated like anyone else–that’s where I agreed with FA. But I can’t quite delude myself into thinking my weight isn’t going to cause problems for me. Odds are it will.
Odds are, LIFE will cause problems for you. Yes, you will probably get sick and have physical problems. But, studies HAVE shown, over and over, than fat people, especially those with a BMI between 25-35, are NOT more likely to suffer ill health than thin or “normal” weight people.
You can certainly want to deny that, but it doesn’t make the evidence go away.
Tempe, I’m truly sorry that you feel that way about SP, because its been such a wonderful resource for me, and I want everyone to have that! I’m not sure when you last read/commented over there, and I don’t mean to minimize your experiences at all, but in MY experience, people at SP are more than happy to discuss the studies to which you refer – providing that you can actually link to/reference these studies.
What gets squelched are the claims that “everyone knows” or that “most of the studies suggest otherwise” without any supporting evidence which can be discussed. Its impossible to productively discuss a hypothetical collection of studies, because the validity of a study depends on so many factors, including but not limited to sample size, statistical methodology, experimental design and so on.
Many people, like myself, are more than happy to read the studies and discuss them – but I’m not willing to discuss them based on a news report, or what a friend of a friend told me.
“One can say what one actually thinks, without having to consider whether it dovetails with the hosts’ point of view.”
One can say what one actually thinks, if one can defend it logically. I think an open comments policy allows people to say stupid stuff and hit submit, rather than actually thinking about what they are saying and why someone might object.
I do think the level of discourse on SP can be intimidating for a newbie, which is why Kate encourages us to have our own 101 space, which I believe she was hoping WAtRD was going to be. A place where we can say things we’re unsure about or are just plain wrong about, but where after hearing another POV, we might change our opinion. In that sense, there is value to having a permissive comments policy, but I think when the comments are totally open, you just get so many people who don’t actually care about listening or changing their minds, they just want to spew shit that makes them feel better about themselves without actually having to do the work of questioning themselves and acknowledging their prejudices.
As a teacher of English at the college level, I want to chime in about the grammar issue. In a classroom, I make an effort to read what students who struggle to write in Standard Edited Academic English write without penalizing them in terms of grades or evaluation or whatever. This isn’t to say that we don’t ever talk about grammar or the importance of presenting well-proofed writing when you publish–but I also make a point to remind my students that professional, publishing writers almost always have proofreaders whether they need them or not.
An internet blog, in my opinion, constitutes a publication. Yes, it’s a free, public piece of writing. But it’s published, just the same as a magazine or newspaper. If mamaV wants to be taken seriously as a writer, she probably should pick up a style manual or at least find someone to give her stuff a good proofing, and probably both. That’s not an elitist ploy to think up reasons to ignore a voice I don’t agree with–it’s just good practice for anyone who wants to be a writer.
“Bottomline, we can all continue to out-snark each other….or we can attempt to listen and learn. I have already learned a great deal from reading all of the comments, knowing Kate, reading her book, and now reading the other blogs that have been recommended to me (such as this one).”
And the comment “I am not afraid to say I’m beautiful. Why are you?” is supposed to be…not snarky? You don’t seem to be trying to elevate the level of discourse here.
I’m curious…what have you learned, specifically about privilege? Why do you think that your experience as a thin woman is on par with the experience of a fat woman? You’ve already apologized for the way in which you conveyed your message…what was the content of that message? if you had to address Jelly over again, what would you say? I am not asking rhetorically…I really want to know what you think.
I’m coming to this thread late, and I have to say, I love you guys! Amen and yes! to so many of these comments. Still, I’m about to get my capsrage on:
#1 Still. Doesn’t. Get. It. Yes, “thin privilege exists” AND YOU BENEFIT FROM IT. It doesn’t exist out there somewhere *waves hand*, you, mamaV, benefit from it, and that makes your experience of body acceptance different from those who don’t conform to one or more of the normative beauty standards that have been enumerated by about a billionty commenters on your site.
#2 It’s ok for trolls to make personal, ad hominem attacks against other commenters and bloggers (which just serves to derail any serious discussion, if you ask me), but when Jelly made a comment you didn’t like, rather than respond to it within the comment thread, you elevated it to an entire post. A blogger’s privilege, to be sure, but I find it telling which comments you’re willing to leave alone and which ones you find offensive enough to elevate to a post. Just sayin’.
#3 I’m on record in the comment thread to your Jelly post that I seriously thought some troll had highjacked your byline because the post was so offensive AND poorly written. I agree with everyone else that poor grammar and sentence structure are hindering your ability to communicate clearly. That’s not snobbery. Your writing doesn’t have to be perfect, but it should be comprehensible.
#4 Wha? See #3.
As for the rest, bah. I’m so done with that site (though like Puffalo, I can’t turn away from the privilege Q&A). I was willing to give Miss Lori a chance. Her first post was good, but the second was more I’ll-be-able-to-accept-my-body-once-I-lose-some-weight talk. And now I see they’ve added a new blogger, yumyucky, who I’ve already fought with in the comments on Roni’s FA post for her blatant fat-hate comments. Dunzo.
Reverse discrimination? Seriously??
I guess I must have been imagining it all these years, having a boyfriend with a BMI under 21, not to mention my share of cool thin friends and a cool thin shrink, and even a size 4 mom who will go into a plus-sized store with me and buy me clothes without being freaked out or critical about the fat bodies therein. Nope, didn’t happen. I must hate thin people.
No. What I hate is diet talk. I don’t care if it comes from a size 0 or a size 40, and I’m not going to frequent sites where diet and yay-weight-loss talk is allowed to take over. I don’t have anything personal against individual people who diet; I know there’s relentless pressure to diet that comes from all corners, and some people are literally being held over a barrel, forced to lose weight to get the medical care or job they need. But I don’t want to see it glorified. If that’s the kind of site you’re running, mazel tov. You can run it without me.
Having not paid much attention in general to this whole drama, I can say I understand the lost sarcasm thing. That happens to me a LOT online. At least half of what I say is sarcastic or snarky and often people just don’t catch it. Not because anyone is dumber than I am, but because when you type something out you lose the snark voice and when others read it they may not use the same mental voice I did. I’ve had to eat shit and apologize many times when I didn’t mean to offend because something was taken differently than how I intended it.
That said, I have learned to point out when I am being sarcastic to avoid this. If this person uses it regularly (I don’t know if she does because, again, I haven’t been following this whole thing) she should have figured that out by now, too.
I haven’t seen SP squelch the deluge of studies enumerating the evils of fat. I’ve seen them challenge the data collection, sample sizes and funding sources that scream bias. I’ve also seen the bloggers encourage healthful behaviors for people of all sizes. I’ve seen each and every blogger on SP concede that there are correlations between obesity and some diseases. They challenge the assumption that correlation and cause are the same thing.
Time will catch up with all of us who live to old age, regardless of weight.
@Cindy – that’s what I was trying to say, only your version was much more coherent!
@MezzoSherri: I read your comment on WATRD. You kick ass!
Thanks to everyone who helped me understand #4. :)
But you know, I still don’t understand how she utilized “sarcasm” in her post, either. She keeps saying “oops, my sarcasm didn’t come off well.” but never clearly explains how she meant it to be understood. If she really meant to be sarcastic, it was very poorly done sarcasm since hardly anyone understood it that way.
When Kate joined WATRD I really wanted to like the project. It sounded kind of promising. But now I realize it’s nothing but a weight-loss blog, just as many commenters thought it was supposed to be.
It’s awful—most of the contributers are practically like, “Awww…I totally understand how you feel because I used to feel that way when I was fat! But I’m not anymore! Read my blog to see how I did it!”
I know they don’t mean it that way. I can see that they’re probably nice women, just as Kate said when she joined. But none of them seem to understand Fat Acceptance. Reading their posts it’s clear that they still believe that thinner is better. They seem to believe that people should decide to love their bodies—so that they can start losing weight. They don’t see anything contradictory in that.
And yes, I think grammar is important if you’re writing for a public blog. Why did Mama V not edit the post after the errors were pointed out to her? Every time I read that Barbie post, I cringe from the misused apostrophes. If you want to be taken seriously, you can’t make blatant errors like that! And if you can’t tell the difference between bad grammar and stylistic choices such as the use of “ain’t”…UGH.