We Are The Real Deal?
So, bloggers I respect like Kate Harding and Roni were participating in a Dove-sponsored blog [ETA: I have since been corrected in the comments; the blog is not being sponsored by Dove.] called We Are The Real Deal (with a masthead that I quite frankly love).
Anyway, one of the bloggers posted a kind of unbelievable post responding to what I think was a valid criticism that the site contributors are conventionally attractive, fairly thin women. Here’s an abbreviated version of the (admittedly snotty) comment:
I’m sure you all mean well. But, please–every contributor’s photo looks like she idolizes barbie. Why would anyone listen to people who “fit the mold†talking about body image issues???… If you’re trying to be anything other than a joke–get some WOMEN OF COLOR, SOME FAT WOMEN, SOME “UGLY†WOMEN, and SOME DISABLED WOMEN on here ASAP.
Here was the blogger’s response (both it and the title of the post demonstrate a confusion about how to use an apostrophe, so right away I’m not on her side):
I am a barbie [sic] and proud of it. But I am not proud of the fact that it took me 20 years to figure it out, all the while letting the Jelly’s [sic] of the world make me feel like crap.
The green-eyed-monster will kill you. This I know is true. [Signed] Barbie…the goddess you will never be.
And here’s where the good stuff is: in the comments.
On a superficial level, I think Jelly’s comments are valid. Since I have been a regular reader of Shapely Prose & Roni’s Weigh, I know that two of you have credible experience to bring to the discussion of body image.
Jelly’s thoughts and feelings have a right to be expressed and acknowledged. How does pointing out possible “thin privilege†come to be equated with being “close-minded�
And your closing, “the goddess you will never be†feels dismissive and rude. How can you be sure she already isn’t one?
The original poster then asks someone to define “privilege.” Here is one response:
Go look it up. The rest of us did. And good lord, your post was…juvenile, to put it civilly. “The goddess you will never be� Seriously? On a self-image/self-acceptance blog? Instantly this short, olive-skinned, brown-haired/eyed Mexican-American non-Barbie was back in first grade, listening to her blonde, blue-eyed Barbie doll-looking classmate taunting her with “don’t you wish you were blonde so you could be pretty, too�
Based on Kate Harding’s participation here, I wandered over thinking that this was going to be a body acceptance blog in which a diversity of bodies, abilities, sizes, etc would be celebrated. Instead the first three posts mock a commenter for bringing up legitimate issues in an albeit mocking manner, celebrate diet shaming by parents, and question whether fat acceptance is appropriate.
Not quite what I expected, but it’s my perogative to leave.
Here’s one of the other contributors:
The lack of diversity of your panel was exactly what I pointed out to you at the Blogher body image breakout session. I was very pleased by how receptive you were to my comments during our brief exchange on site. I know that you are a thoughtful, reasonable person, passionate about doing good for others. That is why I was happy to accept your invitation to be a part of the endeavor, WeAreTheRealDeal.com.
I had not commented on your current blogpost till now, because what I have to say about it is not how I wanted to be introduced to your site. However, I feel I have a duty to speak up if I am going to be a regular contributor going forward.
Although I am a huge believer in freedom of expression, I must tell you in all honesty I believe you did more harm than good with your post. I have a personal policy, “Don’t freak and blogâ€. I can absolutely appreciate the nerve that was seemingly rubbed raw by Jelly’s comment, but I must echo another person’s comment in saying as a host you have a greater responsibility beyond your own personal feelings. Your comments reflect not only on you as an individual, but on the group as a whole. And if your goal is to make this blog a destination for people to come for insightful communication about a subject so raw as body type, image and self-worth, then it needs to remain a safe place for discourse, and should never involve personal attacks launched by the contributors; even when justifiably provoked.
There’s lots more to read there, including an apology of sorts from the original blogger, who shut down the comments on the first post, and more comments commenting on the weakness of the apology.
In the meantime, Kate Harding has left the site and promised a post about it. I’ll be interested to see if the site really does move towards diversity and inclusion. And maybe they could hire a proofreader.
Posted by mo pie
Filed under: Advocacy, Fat Positive, Gossip, Meta
Ah, that whole situation was handled so poorly. I think the site was started with good intentions but quickly turned into something negative that I personally want no part of and neither do many other former supporters. I hate that fact though because there really needs to be discussion and support for positive body image from all the different views.
They’re sponsored by Dove?! Oh, this just keeps getting more depressing.
I couldn’t believe that article when I read it. Talk about making most of the world feel unwelcome! It was the first post I ever read there, and it will also be my last.
Good on Kate for refusing to be part of a group that accepts that sort of shaming of people asking legitimate questions.
Kate’s withdrawn her participation. I certainly don’t blame her.
I got out a couple of weeks ago when a poster calling people “fatties”, emotionally assaulting someone for not dieting and making personal attacks on Kate and her husband (what the hell does he have to do with anything?) was presented as “the reason we have unmoderated comments” and “a different perspective” we “need to learn to deal with without blowing our stacks”.
Essentially: it’s totally cool to hate on other people you think are less than you because they weigh more than you do. It’s TOTALLY NOT COOL to respond to this bigotry with justified anger. Get a grip, guys!
No. Bye.
I’m glad Kate left. WATRD can say they support postive body image all they like but they clearly support a certain kind of body image for a certain kind of person, and thanks, but so does the whole rest of the world. It’s just Cosmo-style cognitive dissonance body “acceptance”. They’re bringing nothing new to the table.
I don’t think it’s possible for a body acceptance board to have a zero-moderation policy when it comes to comments for sake of the sheer fragility of the subject matter being discussed.
I checked out the site after it was announced and found very little that engaged my interest. I love Claire Mysko and I was glad to see Kate selected as a blogger, but the writing otherwise is mediocre at best. When your blog’s founder literally doesn’t even know what privilege is and then even when it is pointed out to her casually dismisses it in a disrespectful way…. well, that’s not a blog I want to be a follower of. It’s a shame, really, because I think she and the contributors all had good intentions.
Oh, race-fail in a Unilever sponsored space, how unexpected. I mean, it’s not like the corporation makes money selling skin lightening creams or something.
Yeah. I guess despite the questionable funding, I was hoping for the best. We really, really didn’t get it.
Wow…
I’d looked at the site when it first premiered, but hadn’t paid much attention since, because there wasn’t much there to draw me in. Even Kate’s posts were generally reposts from Shapely Prose.
I just went back to check it out and found a post encouraging mothers to shame their daughters about eating a cookie (because that will make them thin! Yay!), and another, written by a thin woman, mischaracterizing fat acceptance as the acceptance of ill health.
The writing is pretty bad, including misuse of “there” and “their”, one of my pet peeves. And then this MamaV is confused about why people are mad about her “sarcasm”? Even setting aside the offensive thin privilege of the controversial post, anyone who’s been reading blogs for more than a couple months should know that sarcasm does NOT translate well in print. Effective sarcasm depends on the reader already presuming your good intentions, so they can see past the opposite message delivered by sarcastic words. Clearly that blog doesn’t have the secure sense of community for it to work, even in a less ham-handed post than the one in question.
Yuck!
I’m so grateful for sites like this one, and Shapely Prose.
Given that, going in:
–Roni didn’t understand the purpose of FA as a civil rights issue
–the site has unmoderated comments
–the site’s bloggers regularly conflate thinness and health
–MamaV doesn’t know what privilege means (and is too privileged to look it up)
–it’s sponsored by companies that regularly engage in body shaming to sell products
–the site (like Shapely Prose) made nods to diversity as a “someday issue” and then (like SP) said, “Be patient with us!”
this should come as absolutely no surprise.
Sweet! I love me some drama in the morning.
I’m not sure how much Kate’s going to get into about her decision to leave the project, but I do know that she had already decided before yesterday’s fiasco; she just hadn’t announced it yet. Obviously, that post caused her to speed up that announcement.
That blog seems like a giant pile of Suz0rz to me.
One of the bloggers refuses to post trigger warnings on potentially triggering posts because”
“LIFE IS A TRIGGER.
Therefore, it is the responsibility of the individual to avoid the obvious- such as this movie, pro ana sites, even blogs such as this one.”
Nothing like a little patronizing BS to go with my morning tea.
The fact that Kate Harding has allegedly withdrawn from WATRD doesn’t show much intellectual integrity, does it? I’m not a reader of her Shapely Prose blog, but, to cut-and-run from a fledging endeavor doesn’t seem very courageous to me.
I linked to founder Heather’s blog MamaV on my Eating Disorders Digest RSS feed. Heather has managed to offend a number of people there because she trolls private pro-ana messageboards and then reposts images and content there on her blog. She also shows an alarming lack of compassion to the struggles that people with eating disorders face, thus earning her all the more detractors. Not all her content is bad, which is why I added her to the feed, but she might sit back, remove the shoe leather from her mouth, and reconsider why it is so many people are offended by her comments and tone.
I’m not a reader of her Shapely Prose blog, but, to cut-and-run from a fledging endeavor doesn’t seem very courageous to me.
Actually, when the blog founder repeatedly ignores and contadicts the principles the blog was allegedly founded on (including by denying her own privilege, giving fat hate an unquestioned voice, and trying to silence those who want to add any diversity of opinion) it seems to me the only courageous thing to do is say “No, I won’t be a part of this” and walk away.
As someone noted elsewhere, it has only increased my respect for Kate. This shit isn’t okay and I’m glad she’s no longer associated with it.
I think that some level of dialogue is necessary, but unmoderated blogs dealing with weight and body acceptance are prime targets for hate-mongering trolls who will drive away many people who would be valuable contributers.
And the response to Jelly’s commentary was disturbing at best. So, MamaV can be a goddess and Jelly can’t? Why? Weight? Race? Physical appearance? That response just perpetuates the idea that some women (or people) are better and more deserving than others.
I also checked out WATRD when Kate first announced that she’d be involved. But, after being offered weightloss “support” (having already described my very regular running, weightlifting, and yoga habits, plus my general inclination to cook for myself, as well as a belief in HAES), and finding very few posts that resonated with me, I’m done with this site.
I don’t think Kate lacks integrity for leaving. In fact, I think she’s maintaining her integrity by deciding to leave – why stay involved with something that clearly doesn’t align with your personal values?
I was shocked by what I saw on WATRD. People were making comments–that were not even addressed by the bloggers–that it is impossible to have healthy habits and be a size 18. There are people stating that it is “Not okay to be fat and unhealthy!!” There are blog posts praising mothers for asking their daughters “Do you really need that?” when they reach for a cookie.
I mean, this is what is supposed to pass for body acceptance? I get the sense that a lot of women there are either still suffering from or are in the very early stages of recovery from eating disorders, and are still so entrenched in a pro-ana culture/mindset that their idea of “body acceptance” is, at this point, limited to “It’s okay to not be anorexic, as long as you remain thin.” It seems more like a weight loss support blog and, quite frankly at times, a celebration of disordered eating and thinking about food, than a blog that is providing any positive support for people looking to accept themselves as they actually are, right now.
Today was my first and last time visting WATRD. All I can say is ‘WTF’. Still trying to pick my jaw up off the floor.
Sweet Machine already said it, but I just wanted to clarify that I made my decision to leave WATRD a while back and had told the other bloggers, but hadn’t had the time to post about it. People started e-mailing me about yesterday’s post, while I was out all day and away from the computer, so I announced on Twitter, because I really, really do not endorse that shit.
The decision to leave had to do with a lot of things – including a potential full-time job opportunity on the horizon. But yeah, lack of comment moderation and a lack of understanding of privilege definitely have to do with it.
The thing about Kate is that she doesn’t want to deal with dissenters. She likes lemmings. She wants to swear and call people names and chatter on about what most of the world considers nonsense, but then she doesn’t want to deal with the replies of readers who think she’s crazy. I’d like to see her deal with unmoderated comments, and she’s certainly not courageous enough to do it on her site. The other girls on there are just as bad.
Uh, I’m assuming that that “A Sarah” is not, in fact, SP blogger A Sarah. Cute taking the name of one of us SP “girls,” though.
A Sarah – the other “girls” are bad? First of all, they are women. Second, are you purposely using the name A Sarah, the name of one of the co-bloggers, to confuse people? Second, IT’S HER BLOG. If you don’t like it, don’t read it. It’s as simple as that. Many of us are thankful for the safe space they create for us. What they put up with behind the scenes is something I could NEVER, ever do. The level of hatred that they sift through would make me never get out of bed.
Right on, SM. :-]
Right on, SM. :-]
Also, I said second twice – oops. Power of twos, I guess.
I was excited when WATRD popped up! At first. It seemed to be all kinds of fun new viewpoints and things, on the surface. But then it degenerated into the same old fat-bashing. It’s not about everyone feeling good about themselves there, not anymore. I can’t bring myself to post, because I don’t want to do the FA 101 fight. And now I’m just plain going to stop reading. WTF, seriously, that ain’t how a dignified blogger handles a situation.
I got 10 bucks says that the fake, cowardly “A Sarah” is actually a misogynist man.
A Sarah (aka Fake A Sarah–pretty damn cowardly yourself there, stealing an actual fat activist’s handle for your bullshit–it gives you no legitimacy, no matter what you may think)–
She’s allowed to “not deal with dissenters.” Her blog, her rules. And furthermore, it’s not so much not dealing with dissent–I’ve seen her publish and respond well to constructive criticism or places where she may have been short-sighted. But there’s a huge difference between that and writing stupid unscientific pro-diet crap or trollish fat-hate. She’s an FA blogger. She has rules for her blog. I highly doubt you’d want me coming into your space and insulting you. Furthermore, the people who read her blog–for enjoyment, not mockery as seems to be your case–hear the diet crap every day, on TV, in magazines, from “well-meaning” friends and coworkers. Everybody deserves their place of peace and quiet.
Actually I would argue that by moderating comments Kate and her co bloggers actually just make sure that their commentariat don’t have to deal with dissenters. THEY still have to read the hateful comments to see if they should get through. They just get to hit the delete button instead of arguing about the same shit ad nauseum.
Using A Sarah’s name? Uh, extremely trolly. Whatevs, you are only making yourself look douchey. The real A Sarah is a gem.
I’m encouraging people to drop a line to Dove about sponsoring this tripe:
http://dove.ca/contact/form/
Good Day,
I am Miss Lori, the “other contributer” quoted above. I am the newest member of the We Are The Real Deal website. True, I was disappointed with the events of yesterday, but I also don’t scare easily; especially when we are talking about subjects as raw as body image, racial diversity, and self worth. These conversations are touchy at best because they cut to the heart of our being. I sincerely hope that as the emotions of yesterday come to a settling pause we can renew our discourse with more respect and appreciation for what all of us bring to the table.
I am sorry that Kate will not be a part of the panel given the demands on her time with all of her projects. I was looking forward to working along side of her. However, I know that her decision to leave the blog was already finalized before yesterday. Unfortunately her announcement coincided with the emotive chaos.
(Another point of fact I want to make clear, Dove does not sponsor our site, nor are any of the contributers compensated.)
I hope that by contributing my multicultural life experiences as a full size woman, a wife and a mother will bring more dimension to our blog-site. However, I also hope that I will learn even more from my interactions with my fellow bloggers and with our readers.
I truly appreciate your time and attention, and sincerely look forward to engaging with you in the future.
SMILE On!
ML
http://www.MissLori.TV
http://www.MissLorisCAMPUS.com
Holy shit! Are you the Miss Lori of Moving and Groovin’ Time on PBS Kids??
Ok, I just checked out Miss Lori’s site – you are THAT Miss Lori. My 5-year old is a big fan (or he was back in his Clifford days)!
Mo pie, sorry to have highjacked the thread with toddler celebrity squeeee! Back on topic – Her few comment posts thus far have been thoughtful, I will be keeping an eye out for Miss Lori’s full posts now.
I also don’t scare easily
You understand, right, that no one here is “scaring easily”? That this is just the latest in a series of problematic messages from the mods at WAtRD, especially mamaV? This phrase comes close to blaming people for reacting with justified anger and concern to silencing and shaming tactics used against valid comments (on a supposedly “unmoderated” blog) while comments of bigotry and hatred are given free reign.
We are not reacting unreasonably here, and I won’t have it implied that we are. I hope you can make a positive contribution to the blog, but you might want to start by understanding that the problem is NOT the reaction of people here and elsewhere. The problem is the behaviour of the mods, especially mamaV, when the hegemony of anyone other than thin, white, able-bodied, cis, straight WLDers is challenged. That is what needs addressing. To point that out is not “scaring easily”.
With all due respect Caitlin I feel as though you are taking my words out of context and thus distorting my point. “I don’t scare easily”. I am not scared to face a challenge. I am not scared to speak my mind when other people disagree with me. I am not scared to join a blog that is under severe scrutiny and suffering from a difficult exchange. “I don’t scare easily”. I made no comment whatsoever about anyone else’s viewpoints, or even remotely alluded to any readers acting unreasonably. I simply stated my intentions and my reasoning for those intentions. I am fully committed to continuing forward with these conversations even when it means navigating choppy emotional waters. However, In the end the only person I can speak for is myself. I appreciate your willingness to hear me.
SMILE On!
ML
http://www.MissLori.TV
http://www.MissLorisCAMPUS.com
PS Yes Krismcn, I am that Miss Lori. I am humbled by your support. Give your son a hug from me! :)
Miss Lori, okay then. I’m sorry to have misinpterpreted you. I am (understandably) touchy on the subject after reading the threads on WAtRD and having a severe attack of “what the hell?”
I really do hope you can bring some positivity to the blog. From your comments here and elsewhere it seems like you have some interesting things to say. Good luck.
Phew, y’all had my back even before I asked. Thanks!
I have often been sad that my moniker was so bland; if you’re going to steal someone’s screen name, shouldn’t you go for a more interesting one? As for Kate liking lemmings… you know, I was just reading about lemmings to my oldest last night, and they are dead cute.
On an unrelated point: MissLori, you’re my hero.
As for the subject at hand: The post and subsequent apology is really… [seethes]… unfortunate. I don’t know what else to say and I’ve got to go watch my kid do a somersault, but… yeah, just, it fills me with despair. (WATRD, not the somersault.)
Um, okay, because I like Caitlin a LOT and because I didn’t read far enough to see that MissLori and Caitlin were in disagreement… and because I was also freaking a little about someone commenting under my name and I incidentally haven’t gotten a good night’s sleep in days… I just wanted to say that MissLori, when I said “you’re my hero” it was because — and this is a little embarrassing to admit — of your celebrity! (Another PBSKids watcher here.) Sorry everyone for getting muddled. I’ll go back and actually read the thread now. I’m sorry.
A Sarah, no worries. It turns out Miss Lori and I aren’t in disagreement at all, I just had tetchy comprehension fail. It’s all good. :)
Best of luck bringing diversity and true body acceptance to WATRD, Miss Lori. I mean that sincerely.
Best of luck bringing diversity and true body acceptance to WATRD, Miss Lori. I mean that sincerely.
Agreed! I think Miss Lori is awesome, and I hope that her co-bloggers will encourage commenters to treat her with the respect she so richly deserves.
@O.C–As the author of the mom/cookie blog post, that was not at ALL the intent of my post. I was sharing how even though my mom never restricted me, and taught me about balance and healthy eating, I *still* ended up screwed up with disordered eating issues. I stick to my stance that my mom didn’t do anything wrong.
And I am STOKED to be working with Miss Lori!
As a PR professional in real life who literally writes for a living, I hope you don’t see any typos in my posts. If you do, I stand corrected.
Hmm. So that site is NOT affiliated with Dove? Oddly, I recently took a survey from Dove, and they were were asking questions if I would be interested in reading a blog that was a panel of women writing about positive self-esteem and body issues. That is quite a coincidence! Perhaps Dove already passed?
@Melissa – Just a quick thought about the whole “do you really need that?” thing. My mom did the same thing to me in my early teens and it may not have triggered your eating disorder, but it helped ruin my ability to listen to my body by always making me second guess myself. That was the first thing my nutritionist told her to stop doing.
And Miss Lori – very best luck.
I read that ‘apology’, and it just came over to me as a big ol’ bait and switch. ‘Sorry if you were offended, but… OH BUT WON’T SOMEONE THINK OF THE ANOREXICS instead of listening to those uppity women of colour and their valid criticism?’
Based on what I’ve seen today of WATRD, it isn’t a blog I plan on following. Which is a shame, because as you say, the masthead is an awesome thing.
Miss Lori, my son and I love you! We like Miss Rosa, too, but we miss seeing you as often this season.
Good luck over at WATRD.
@mopie – Thank you so much. I feel honored to be mentioned in your post although dissapointed its about this crappy situation.
I have some personal stuff I’m going through and I haven’t been active in the contraversy but I was utterly disspointed in how the whole situation unfolded.
I’m still trying to figure out my place on We Are The Real Deal and I’m not sure we realized (at least I didn’t) the enormity of what we are trying to do. We jumped into it without thinking many things completely through. I realize that may be too little too late but I want to emphasis that our intentions came from a good place.
I urge some to read the comments and the conversations that have been happening. I have found it completely enlightening and I am proud to be a part of the effort to at least try and start the conversations.
and @Miriam one thing you have to know about me and my bloging style is I write to educate myself on topics. I never claim expertise. By reposting my old article about FA on WATRD I learned tons and THATS the point of the collective blog at least it is for me.
Thanks again Mopie!
OH! and I’m sure I was the culprit behind mixing up their and they’re… I’m getting better but I’m by no means a seasoned writer. :)
@Meems, you could be right, but since I’m an emotional eater anyway, and always have been, I’m not sure it had that much of an influence on me. As my dad lovingly teases, “You were born hungry”! (voracious appetite for life — but also food)
I’m not surprised that Kate left. She absolutely hates having someone argue against her, because she doesn’t hold up well in a fair fight. At Shapely Prose, anyone who doesn’t toe the party line is immediately labeled a “troll” and banned, even if it’s something as innocuous as mentioning a study where dieting DID work. Sorry, but your “safe space” is someone else’s “sticking your head in the sand”.
Jane (aka Fake A Sarah, I’m assuming)–Read what I said in response to you earlier.
Regarding safe space at Shapely Prose-
It is better to be safe than sorry. There ARE trolls on the web trying to undermine size acceptance sites, and not just amateur creeps. Dieting is worth billions to corporate America and the power-elite. Clandestine posters paid to represent special interests are a fact and anyone who does not know this by now needs to stop watching MSM and do some research.
Self acceptance is a process. Part of that process is a need for havens with like minded people. We have said time and time again, if someone wants to talk dieting, there are THOUSANDS of sites they can go to. There are only a handful of acceptance sites. Anyone with a need to talk about diets on sites that ask them not to IS either a troll or a such a boundary damaged person they don’t know where they begin and everyone else stops. Therefore size acceptance is a threat to them because they are afraid they might get sucked in, but equally afraid of deviating from the norms.
When a SA person goes on a diet board and talks about how diets don’t work (even though our position is far more scientifically sound) we get accused of being saboteurs. Yet folks have the nerve to complain about the rules of SA sites whose founders put their own time and sweat into! Quite a double standard. If you don’t like sites like Shapely Prose, start one of your own! Wouldn’t that be much more productive than snarky criticism that no one takes seriously anyway?
@Roni, in response to “I urge some to read the comments and the conversations that have been happening.”
Because I haven’t gone back since Kate first mentioned blogging there, I may have missed some of the enlightening conversations to which you were referring. More than the posts there, it was the comments that did me in. I left there SO angry, then SO depressed about the vitriolic language and downright hatred of fat people that was allowed through. I understand that it is an unmoderated blog, but I think that it’s important for the bloggers to realize exactly how painful and triggering it might be, ESPECIALLY for people who are trying to improve their body image. This is true, I would imagine, of people who are actively trying to lose weight in order to accomplish this as well as for those who have decided on FA/HAES as their means of self-acceptance.
As others have said, I DO hope that something changes and people can walk away empowered. However, the quotes that I have seen about this current upset disgust me (I know that you weren’t the offender). There is no way in hell anyone will EVER get me to go back to that site.
Anyone with a need to talk about diets on sites that ask them not to IS either a troll or a such a boundary damaged person they don’t know where they begin and everyone else stops.
Exactly. Of course you’ll get banned if you discuss dieting or how fat people really are just lazy and stupid on Shapely Prose. What did you expect? The problem is not with Kate and co, it’s with you.
I really liked everything you said there, FatNsassy.
Also serial posting to say I had many of the same problems LilahCello did with WAtRD. Allowing unmoderated comments on a site for women who’re trying to improve their body image (and therefore, logically, may have poor body image) is doomed to failure.
You can argue that since these “perspectives” exist in “the real world”, it’s important to let them through so we can “learn to deal with them”. Hey, you know some other perspectives that exist in the real world? That fat people are stupid and lazy, that no woman in thin enough or pretty enough, that if an ED’s what it takes for you to be “acceptably” thin then what’s the problem, yes you should exercise 4 hours a day til I feel like looking at you fatty, you need this $50 cream to be fit to leave the house, etc etc etc etc.
In other words, we get all those perspectives every minute of every day from everywhere, yet mamaV was worried enough to start up a site to try to undo some of that. So…you mean something is wrong with those perspectives? You mean maybe we shouldn’t have to listen to them all the time? So maybe THEY SHOULDN’T BE ALLOWED UNMITIGATED IN COMMENTS on exactly such a site? Hmm. That’s an idea.
The posts are (sometimes) all right, but any good they do is immediately undone in comments. If those “alternative perspectives” are so important, why even have the site at all? Just let popular culture do its work.
Anyone who says that Kate Harding squelched dissent is either not a reader of the blog, is someone who was told to knock it off when violating the clearly-defined boundaries of the site or is, frankly, trying to stir shit up.
There is debate and dissent on shapely prose all the time. That’s why most posts generate more than 50 comments. Sure, there’s a fair amount of “right on!” But there is routine challenging of ideas and assumptions.
And another thing: When I see a blog has unmoderated comments, I see a blogger who doesn’t want or have time to set healthy boundaries. That’s fine, I guess, but I choose not to spend my precious spare time in spaces where all behavior is tolerated. Even inexcusable behavior.
I cam here via Kate Harding’s blog post & just wanted to say thanks for distilling the conflict. I didn’t slog my way thru the 100s of comments over the several posts on the issue and thus was more optimistic than I now think I should have been when I weighed in on how to make positive change over there.
Honestly, I think I am just tired of how narrowly some ppl define the word “women” or phrase “women’s issues.” While I do hope ppl who “screw up” get themselves sorted, I would suggest that there are other long term authors on these issues with a much broader outlook. ironically one of the ones I teach material from is called: Adios Barbie
I’ve read, and listened, and reread and listened some more…and here’s my take;
1) Privilege: Of course thin privilege exists and is wrong and unfair. Fat discrimination exists and is simply inexcusable. BUT–so is reverse discrimination and “ranking” the right to express body image issues.
I will have a lot more fuel to add to the fire, along with my contributors. Watch for QA to be posted Thurs., get your daggers sharpened!
2) No moderation: I have no interest in a nicey-nice-don’t-worry-be-happy blog. SP is meant to be a safe place, that allows individuals to express themselves in a non-threatening environment. WATRD is meant to be an open place, that allows us to see the brutal reality, no matter how offending, hurtful, and irrelevant. There is space for both and you are free to choose which you are in the mood to read.
For the record, comments were not closed to shut off the conversation (they are back open BTW), I meant to direct the comments to the apology post because it made logical sense to me. I am really hard core on complete and total freedom of speech, regardless of how brutal it may get (and as you can see I am taking the brunt of it) so I am sorry this was perceived as an attempt to cut off your voice…feel free to continue posting your comments, the conversation is still in full roar.
3) Intellectual snobbery: Ripping on grammatical errors and type’os is so tired. My style ain’t changin’ (yes, I said ain’t). Plus doesn’t this send the message that one must articulate themselves at a set standard and/or level of education or risk being criticized?
4) Kate is a gem. She is a bright, courageous woman. Did I miss the chapter on thin privilege? Did you skip the part about not judging other women? Glazed right past the advice to “get over yourself and stop thinking everyone is focused on you and your flaws?”
5) Barbie comments -sarcasm that bombed…since this was taken literally by most, I sincerely apologized for the Barbie related statements (only). I mistakenly thought my sarcasm would be quite obvious since I am a 40 year mom, with lumps, bumps, zits, and wrinkles just like 99% of the female population—except I love who I am and I am not afraid to say I am beautiful. Why are you?
Bottomline, we can all continue to out-snark each other….or we can attempt to listen and learn. I have already learned a great deal from reading all of the comments, knowing Kate, reading her book, and now reading the other blogs that have been recommended to me (such as this one).
Are you willing to explore the other side? I hope so, because it is quite obvious the ladies here and at SP are leading the FA effort, and WATRD is on your side whether you believe it or not—and whether you want us to or not.
I am glad my Barbie post let us all cut to the chase….aren’t you?
Heather
aka mamaV
“reverse discrimination”
*boggles*
That’s it. Heather, I don’t know about mopie or any of the other bloggers, but you just lost all credibility here with me.
Are you related to Bakke?
Wow.
Um. Just…wow.
So, I’ve responded at WATRD. There are so many great voices in the comments. It’s really wonderfully empowering to read. I get the feeling that mamaV is skimming the comments, but not really “getting” them. I hope some of this sinks in.
I really did hope they would be able to build something better by being inclusive. But, it seems like I just scratched the surface and out came something even more troubling. I think some of mamaV’s comments reveal that she is even less aware of women’s issues than one would assume a person blogging on body issues ought to be and now we see that she may not be willing to learn anything. I think the ball is in her court and it’s time for some reflection. I’ll check back with them, but my hopes are slim.
I feel like I instigated all of this nastiness by venting. But I think one commenter was right when they said this post was just the last straw which perhaps provided a needed forum for people to vent all of the sketchy things they’d been noticing about the blog. Either way, misogyny and power are difficult to confront.
I am glad my Barbie post let us all cut to the chase….aren’t you?
I’m just glad that it revealed you for what you are so I don’t waste an iota of my time at WATRD.
@Jelly: I do think you kind of forced the matter (and I’m glad you did!), but yes, I agree that these issues would have surfaced sooner or later.