We Are The Real Deal?
So, bloggers I respect like Kate Harding and Roni were participating in a Dove-sponsored blog [ETA: I have since been corrected in the comments; the blog is not being sponsored by Dove.] called We Are The Real Deal (with a masthead that I quite frankly love).
Anyway, one of the bloggers posted a kind of unbelievable post responding to what I think was a valid criticism that the site contributors are conventionally attractive, fairly thin women. Here’s an abbreviated version of the (admittedly snotty) comment:
I’m sure you all mean well. But, please–every contributor’s photo looks like she idolizes barbie. Why would anyone listen to people who “fit the mold†talking about body image issues???… If you’re trying to be anything other than a joke–get some WOMEN OF COLOR, SOME FAT WOMEN, SOME “UGLY†WOMEN, and SOME DISABLED WOMEN on here ASAP.
Here was the blogger’s response (both it and the title of the post demonstrate a confusion about how to use an apostrophe, so right away I’m not on her side):
I am a barbie [sic] and proud of it. But I am not proud of the fact that it took me 20 years to figure it out, all the while letting the Jelly’s [sic] of the world make me feel like crap.
The green-eyed-monster will kill you. This I know is true. [Signed] Barbie…the goddess you will never be.
And here’s where the good stuff is: in the comments.
On a superficial level, I think Jelly’s comments are valid. Since I have been a regular reader of Shapely Prose & Roni’s Weigh, I know that two of you have credible experience to bring to the discussion of body image.
Jelly’s thoughts and feelings have a right to be expressed and acknowledged. How does pointing out possible “thin privilege†come to be equated with being “close-minded�
And your closing, “the goddess you will never be†feels dismissive and rude. How can you be sure she already isn’t one?
The original poster then asks someone to define “privilege.” Here is one response:
Go look it up. The rest of us did. And good lord, your post was…juvenile, to put it civilly. “The goddess you will never be� Seriously? On a self-image/self-acceptance blog? Instantly this short, olive-skinned, brown-haired/eyed Mexican-American non-Barbie was back in first grade, listening to her blonde, blue-eyed Barbie doll-looking classmate taunting her with “don’t you wish you were blonde so you could be pretty, too�
Based on Kate Harding’s participation here, I wandered over thinking that this was going to be a body acceptance blog in which a diversity of bodies, abilities, sizes, etc would be celebrated. Instead the first three posts mock a commenter for bringing up legitimate issues in an albeit mocking manner, celebrate diet shaming by parents, and question whether fat acceptance is appropriate.
Not quite what I expected, but it’s my perogative to leave.
Here’s one of the other contributors:
The lack of diversity of your panel was exactly what I pointed out to you at the Blogher body image breakout session. I was very pleased by how receptive you were to my comments during our brief exchange on site. I know that you are a thoughtful, reasonable person, passionate about doing good for others. That is why I was happy to accept your invitation to be a part of the endeavor, WeAreTheRealDeal.com.
I had not commented on your current blogpost till now, because what I have to say about it is not how I wanted to be introduced to your site. However, I feel I have a duty to speak up if I am going to be a regular contributor going forward.
Although I am a huge believer in freedom of expression, I must tell you in all honesty I believe you did more harm than good with your post. I have a personal policy, “Don’t freak and blogâ€. I can absolutely appreciate the nerve that was seemingly rubbed raw by Jelly’s comment, but I must echo another person’s comment in saying as a host you have a greater responsibility beyond your own personal feelings. Your comments reflect not only on you as an individual, but on the group as a whole. And if your goal is to make this blog a destination for people to come for insightful communication about a subject so raw as body type, image and self-worth, then it needs to remain a safe place for discourse, and should never involve personal attacks launched by the contributors; even when justifiably provoked.
There’s lots more to read there, including an apology of sorts from the original blogger, who shut down the comments on the first post, and more comments commenting on the weakness of the apology.
In the meantime, Kate Harding has left the site and promised a post about it. I’ll be interested to see if the site really does move towards diversity and inclusion. And maybe they could hire a proofreader.
Posted by mo pie
Filed under: Advocacy, Fat Positive, Gossip, Meta
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Regarding safe space at Shapely Prose-
It is better to be safe than sorry. There ARE trolls on the web trying to undermine size acceptance sites, and not just amateur creeps. Dieting is worth billions to corporate America and the power-elite. Clandestine posters paid to represent special interests are a fact and anyone who does not know this by now needs to stop watching MSM and do some research.
Self acceptance is a process. Part of that process is a need for havens with like minded people. We have said time and time again, if someone wants to talk dieting, there are THOUSANDS of sites they can go to. There are only a handful of acceptance sites. Anyone with a need to talk about diets on sites that ask them not to IS either a troll or a such a boundary damaged person they don’t know where they begin and everyone else stops. Therefore size acceptance is a threat to them because they are afraid they might get sucked in, but equally afraid of deviating from the norms.
When a SA person goes on a diet board and talks about how diets don’t work (even though our position is far more scientifically sound) we get accused of being saboteurs. Yet folks have the nerve to complain about the rules of SA sites whose founders put their own time and sweat into! Quite a double standard. If you don’t like sites like Shapely Prose, start one of your own! Wouldn’t that be much more productive than snarky criticism that no one takes seriously anyway?
@Roni, in response to “I urge some to read the comments and the conversations that have been happening.”
Because I haven’t gone back since Kate first mentioned blogging there, I may have missed some of the enlightening conversations to which you were referring. More than the posts there, it was the comments that did me in. I left there SO angry, then SO depressed about the vitriolic language and downright hatred of fat people that was allowed through. I understand that it is an unmoderated blog, but I think that it’s important for the bloggers to realize exactly how painful and triggering it might be, ESPECIALLY for people who are trying to improve their body image. This is true, I would imagine, of people who are actively trying to lose weight in order to accomplish this as well as for those who have decided on FA/HAES as their means of self-acceptance.
As others have said, I DO hope that something changes and people can walk away empowered. However, the quotes that I have seen about this current upset disgust me (I know that you weren’t the offender). There is no way in hell anyone will EVER get me to go back to that site.
Anyone with a need to talk about diets on sites that ask them not to IS either a troll or a such a boundary damaged person they don’t know where they begin and everyone else stops.
Exactly. Of course you’ll get banned if you discuss dieting or how fat people really are just lazy and stupid on Shapely Prose. What did you expect? The problem is not with Kate and co, it’s with you.
I really liked everything you said there, FatNsassy.
Also serial posting to say I had many of the same problems LilahCello did with WAtRD. Allowing unmoderated comments on a site for women who’re trying to improve their body image (and therefore, logically, may have poor body image) is doomed to failure.
You can argue that since these “perspectives” exist in “the real world”, it’s important to let them through so we can “learn to deal with them”. Hey, you know some other perspectives that exist in the real world? That fat people are stupid and lazy, that no woman in thin enough or pretty enough, that if an ED’s what it takes for you to be “acceptably” thin then what’s the problem, yes you should exercise 4 hours a day til I feel like looking at you fatty, you need this $50 cream to be fit to leave the house, etc etc etc etc.
In other words, we get all those perspectives every minute of every day from everywhere, yet mamaV was worried enough to start up a site to try to undo some of that. So…you mean something is wrong with those perspectives? You mean maybe we shouldn’t have to listen to them all the time? So maybe THEY SHOULDN’T BE ALLOWED UNMITIGATED IN COMMENTS on exactly such a site? Hmm. That’s an idea.
The posts are (sometimes) all right, but any good they do is immediately undone in comments. If those “alternative perspectives” are so important, why even have the site at all? Just let popular culture do its work.
Anyone who says that Kate Harding squelched dissent is either not a reader of the blog, is someone who was told to knock it off when violating the clearly-defined boundaries of the site or is, frankly, trying to stir shit up.
There is debate and dissent on shapely prose all the time. That’s why most posts generate more than 50 comments. Sure, there’s a fair amount of “right on!” But there is routine challenging of ideas and assumptions.
And another thing: When I see a blog has unmoderated comments, I see a blogger who doesn’t want or have time to set healthy boundaries. That’s fine, I guess, but I choose not to spend my precious spare time in spaces where all behavior is tolerated. Even inexcusable behavior.
I cam here via Kate Harding’s blog post & just wanted to say thanks for distilling the conflict. I didn’t slog my way thru the 100s of comments over the several posts on the issue and thus was more optimistic than I now think I should have been when I weighed in on how to make positive change over there.
Honestly, I think I am just tired of how narrowly some ppl define the word “women” or phrase “women’s issues.” While I do hope ppl who “screw up” get themselves sorted, I would suggest that there are other long term authors on these issues with a much broader outlook. ironically one of the ones I teach material from is called: Adios Barbie
I’ve read, and listened, and reread and listened some more…and here’s my take;
1) Privilege: Of course thin privilege exists and is wrong and unfair. Fat discrimination exists and is simply inexcusable. BUT–so is reverse discrimination and “ranking” the right to express body image issues.
I will have a lot more fuel to add to the fire, along with my contributors. Watch for QA to be posted Thurs., get your daggers sharpened!
2) No moderation: I have no interest in a nicey-nice-don’t-worry-be-happy blog. SP is meant to be a safe place, that allows individuals to express themselves in a non-threatening environment. WATRD is meant to be an open place, that allows us to see the brutal reality, no matter how offending, hurtful, and irrelevant. There is space for both and you are free to choose which you are in the mood to read.
For the record, comments were not closed to shut off the conversation (they are back open BTW), I meant to direct the comments to the apology post because it made logical sense to me. I am really hard core on complete and total freedom of speech, regardless of how brutal it may get (and as you can see I am taking the brunt of it) so I am sorry this was perceived as an attempt to cut off your voice…feel free to continue posting your comments, the conversation is still in full roar.
3) Intellectual snobbery: Ripping on grammatical errors and type’os is so tired. My style ain’t changin’ (yes, I said ain’t). Plus doesn’t this send the message that one must articulate themselves at a set standard and/or level of education or risk being criticized?
4) Kate is a gem. She is a bright, courageous woman. Did I miss the chapter on thin privilege? Did you skip the part about not judging other women? Glazed right past the advice to “get over yourself and stop thinking everyone is focused on you and your flaws?”
5) Barbie comments -sarcasm that bombed…since this was taken literally by most, I sincerely apologized for the Barbie related statements (only). I mistakenly thought my sarcasm would be quite obvious since I am a 40 year mom, with lumps, bumps, zits, and wrinkles just like 99% of the female population—except I love who I am and I am not afraid to say I am beautiful. Why are you?
Bottomline, we can all continue to out-snark each other….or we can attempt to listen and learn. I have already learned a great deal from reading all of the comments, knowing Kate, reading her book, and now reading the other blogs that have been recommended to me (such as this one).
Are you willing to explore the other side? I hope so, because it is quite obvious the ladies here and at SP are leading the FA effort, and WATRD is on your side whether you believe it or not—and whether you want us to or not.
I am glad my Barbie post let us all cut to the chase….aren’t you?
Heather
aka mamaV
“reverse discrimination”
*boggles*
That’s it. Heather, I don’t know about mopie or any of the other bloggers, but you just lost all credibility here with me.
Are you related to Bakke?
Wow.
Um. Just…wow.
So, I’ve responded at WATRD. There are so many great voices in the comments. It’s really wonderfully empowering to read. I get the feeling that mamaV is skimming the comments, but not really “getting” them. I hope some of this sinks in.
I really did hope they would be able to build something better by being inclusive. But, it seems like I just scratched the surface and out came something even more troubling. I think some of mamaV’s comments reveal that she is even less aware of women’s issues than one would assume a person blogging on body issues ought to be and now we see that she may not be willing to learn anything. I think the ball is in her court and it’s time for some reflection. I’ll check back with them, but my hopes are slim.
I feel like I instigated all of this nastiness by venting. But I think one commenter was right when they said this post was just the last straw which perhaps provided a needed forum for people to vent all of the sketchy things they’d been noticing about the blog. Either way, misogyny and power are difficult to confront.
I am glad my Barbie post let us all cut to the chase….aren’t you?
I’m just glad that it revealed you for what you are so I don’t waste an iota of my time at WATRD.
@Jelly: I do think you kind of forced the matter (and I’m glad you did!), but yes, I agree that these issues would have surfaced sooner or later.