Warning: This Is Just Depressing
A story from India, about a 22-year-old woman who killed herself because she was too “obese” to be a good wife.
A 22-year-old software professional hanged herself today, apparently depressed that she wouldn’t be a good wife because she was obese. Swati A., a resident of Amberpet, was set to marry a relative. She was found hanging from a ceiling fan at her home this afternoon, police said.
A suicide note purportedly written by Swati was found at the spot. “No one is responsible for my death. I am obese and not fit to be a good wife to my relative,” the police quoted it as saying.
This first of all made me very sad, but secondly, made me curious about the attitudes towards fat in India in general, and I found something interesting (albeit counterintuitive with the above story). In a comparison of fat bias in six different countries, researchers found:
[A]nti-fat attitudes were best predicted by the belief that people are responsible for life outcomes along with cultural values that hold negative views about fatness. Countries that were ranked high on individualism such as Australia, Poland, and the U.S. showed greater anti-fat attitudes than those ranked low on individualism like India, Turkey, and Venezuela.
I’ve never thought of cultural attitudes towards weight tied to the concept of individuality, but I guess that makes sense. We put “blame” on individuals for their weight, and perhaps that’s less the case in other countries.
The only culture I know anything about is Dutch culture, and honestly, I don’t know a lot about their attitudes regarding weight. My niece once told me that Dutch people think of Americans as “fat people who eat hamburgers,” but I have always found it to be a wonderful country, and I have relatives there of all shapes and sizes. International readers?
Posted by mo pie
Filed under: Fatism, International, Race & Ethnicity
Email us
My Dutch relatives definitely sling around the word “fat” like it’s an insult.
When I’ve lived in South America, being called fat was more just a descriptive statement then a pejorative.
Well, I’m not an international reader, but I have pondered before the way that individualism shapes our tendencies to “blame the victim” here in the US at least. It’s the kind of thing that vindicates assholes who yell “get a job!” at homeless people. The idea, you know, the “American dream”, that any person, regardless of status, is able to “make it” – part of the foundational beliefs of modern capitalism – and if they don’t “make it”, they must not want it badly enough or know about it – hence “get a job”, “you should lose weight”, “can I tell you about Jesus” etc. It’s pretty predictable that any given member of U.S. society will already have an understanding of these expectations, but because we haven’t changed our position yet, it’s assumed we haven’t been convinced, because anyone can do anything if they put their mind to it.
This is a belief very near and dear to the national zeitgeist. It’s seen as liberating, but it can also be very destructive, because it’s not true.
The fat american stereotype is mostly to do with consuption, I think.
Anyway, I wonder if when they did those statistics they were talking to men or women. In a lot of cultures fat on men seems to be more tollerated then fat on women, especially in relation to marriage. It’s becoming more of a level playing field in england at least as they pile on the fat hate but, still, in many places a woman is penalised more then a man for weight gain. The idea that all a woman has to offer is her body and a fat body isn’t good enough.
I also wonder how much western standards are exposure to western culture is changing those statistics.
I am from Germany, and compared to the US I think that what Germans see as an “ideal” and healthy body weight is somewhat less extreme than in the US, however this does not translate to more tolerance towards “really fat” people like me (i.e., the ones that are so lovingly labeled “morbidly obese”). Germany tends to be somewhat lower in individualism than the US, but I don’t think this is the driving force here.
Also, I currently live in the Netherlands and while there seems to be a strong preoccupation with dieting and weight loss my personal experiences have been mostly positive. I think part of it comes from tolerance being a strong value here – of course people are prejudiced just as everywhere else, but in general a lot of people seem to have a “live and let live” attitude. One thing that I find disheartening though is that the Netherlands seem to import every crappy US weight loss show, along with the likes of Dr. Phil etc. (which isn’t exactly size positive either).
As for the individualism and collectivism difference: I am not sure if it is really this onesided. People from individual cultures are in deed much more likely to “blame the victim” and to overestimate personal responsibility. On the other hand the pressure to conform is usually stronger in collectivist cultures. Also, Japan is decidedly collectivist and still has some rather problematic policies when it comes to weight.
In India, people generally (esp. the older generations) often think of body weight neutrally or even, to some extent, positively. In the case of a woman’s characteristics for marriage, however, looks are always an issue. Desirable body types have changed much with increasing western media influence.
Indian ads for skin lightener parallel western weight-loss ads considerably, and skin colour could be considered the ‘equivalent’ stigma to weight in N. America, encompassing elements of gender-bias, class, etc.
I worked with Latin Americans, and they would affectionately call their kid (in Spanish), “fatty” or “twiggy” or whatever, and while I was horrified at first, I came to see it really was a neutral, affectionate thing. So “fatty” is not necessarily bad there, it’s not emotionally abusive to call your kid that–still confounds me.
I told one family it was a bad thing here, and they just said “really?” and laughed. Women still want to lose weight, but the word “fat” isn’t so bad.
Brar – this is an issue in my family. My niece’s children have grandparents from Nicaragua and they were calling my 1.5 year old grand-niece Gordita all the time. It made me furious and I told my niece to make them stop. She kept saying, “Oh, they don’t mean any harm, this is their culture.”
While I understand their culture, they needed to understand that she is growing up in the US and in the US it is a negative.
The world is tough enough on people, why would people give negative nicknames to the people they love the most? Makes no sense to me and I will stand for it in my presence.
Should read…will NOT stand for it in my presence
If you don’t see fat as a big deal–any more than you would red hair or long toes–then “Gordita” is just another nickname.
Jerelyn – If only it were that simple. While I don’t have an issue with my fat, others still do. As long as fat is considered a negative then Gordita is still a negative nickname.
I’ve travelled to Germany on business several times and they tend to see Americans that sit around and eat hamburgers as well. On a wall in the Frankfurt office there is a mural of the world, with cultural features painted over most continents. There is are kangaroos in Australia, sombreros in Mexico, and the US has a big set of “golden arches”
On another trip, a collegue showed me a plastic Easter bunny that was more wide than tall and remarked that is was an “American” Easter bunny.
then there’s mauritania, where some arab-moorish girls are force-fed from an early age so they can become obese=beautiful. why oh why is it such a crazy concept to accept and adore different body types, without shaming/demonizing some and idealizing others? grrr…
I agree that for a lot of countries, that the fat American has more to do with consumption of non-food, then us sitting around eating all the time. It’s more of fat meaning greedy and wasteful attitude, I think. It still doesn’t excuse them from believing that way, as well as vice-versa.
I think it’s very interesting how our individualist culture can be destructive and judgmental, not just with appearance, but especially with homelife. We’re supposed to be financially and emotionally independent with our own homes at 18, and anyone over the age of 18 still at home is a worthless, lazy bum, even if they’re working. If anything, I think our country would benefit financially from people who aren’t going into debt or losing everything trying to be independent, and live with relatives to cut down on expenses.
Our culture does blame the victim without examining what issues and forces might beyond their control. It’s “if he or she isn’t like me, then they aren’t worth anything.”
Bree, you put it so perfectly! In other cultures it’s NORMAL for many generations to live in the same home. We LOVE to blame the victim. And we fear/despise whatever (or whomever) is different.
At the same time, we worship wealthy people who have done nothing to gain that wealth (like celebrity heiresses) and contribute nothing to society.
Kinda screwy, huh?
Thanks Alyssa! I speak from experience, as I’m 32 and still live at home. I have a full-time job, I pay my bills and my own way, but in this house with me is my 80 year-old grandfather, who needs help with his bills too. And, I don’t want to leave him alone. He’s still very competent, still drives, has no real major health problems, but I feel more comfortable knowing he’s not alone 24/7 in case something happens. There is nothing shameful about living at home to look out for a loved one.
Perceptions are HUGELY cultural! In my travels:
* Australia: daily abuse from random passers-by.
* UK: mostly neutral from Anglos, open arms from the Afro-Carib community, disgust from teens of all backgrounds.
* PNG: matter-of-fact descriptive (he has a big nose, she’s fat, etc), no inherent judgement being made.
* Thailand: fascinated but polite interest, more the PNG approach.
* US: complete anonymity in some parts, [see “Australia”] in others.
And more.
Hi, my name is Tessa and I’m dutch. I think the dutch regard being obese as a negative thing to. We might be a little less outspoken about it. Don’t confuse this with tolerance. More likely it’s indifference. Also it’s not in our nature to criticize non family members that way. We are very frank -in your face- about all kinds of subjects but this isn’t one of them.
I don’t mean to be offensive or spurn American people but when I visited the states I noticed that the people who are fat are really fat. In the lovingly named “morbid obese” category. The people who are thin are really thin and workout like crazy.
My general feeling is that Americans never do things just a little. It’s al ways either this or that. No middle ground. Things have to be really big or really small. No grey areas allowed.
Maybe the same goes for fat acceptance and fat hate?
Personally, I try to accept myself. I’ve realized I love to eat, and that’s okay, but I also eat when I’m unhappy. Unfortunately I’m “genetically burdened” as my doctor so eloquently put it. There are a lot of weight related diseases in my family. So I try to make myself happier with life in general. I paint, I’m changing my job, I exercise -endorfines hurray- and I visit family and friends more often.
This way I’m happier, which is good :-), and I’m able to avoid the mindless binging. Last but not least I try to enjoy the calories that are really worth eating.
I try to find an -european?- middle ground.
Could it be that this woman who killed herself had underlying problems, that caused her to turn to food for “comfort” they way many people reach for alcohol when they are upset? Could it be that food was her crutch for her underlying problems which led her to be obese? Could it be she committed suicide because she was battling depression without treatment and used food to get through difficult moments.
We have to look at obesity as a symptom of underlying issues ranging that from lack a of education on how to eat healthy and how to exercise to battling depression with out the benefit of professional help.
As long as we look at obesity as a character and cultural trait we should learn to accept and tolerate we will never learn how to help ourselves achieve personal body image, health and fitness goals.
To accept that I am fat and proud of it, is to give up on myself.
Suzanne, have you or would you consider visiting Japan? I have wondered how they would treat plus sized people there, particularly being an Otaku. Which is like a nerd, but more like a Japanese cultural nerd.
By culture I mean video games, Anime, and Manga. I don’t really think they express the true environment of Japan, but I might be wrong.
This doesn’t make me sad so much as highly suspicious. In a country where dowry deaths are not unheard of, I question the validity of the supposed suicide note.
My experience with the Indian culture is that it is a masogynistic one. Very little thought or consideration is given to the women in matters of marraige. Her family wants to marry her off ASAP, his family looks at her as property rather than an addition to the family. (I realize, I am talking about an extremem case and that there are sure to be verying shades of gray).
The one thing is that curvy women are considered attractive and a real catch. Some degree of chubbiness is a sign of femininity, fertility, and prosperity (in other words…a father or husband can obviously afford to feed his family and feed them well). So unless she was extremely obese, the reason for the suicide doesn’t ring true to me.
It seems more realistic to me (after working with and befriending many women from this culture) that the woman was less than willing to be married off to a relative, especially if she knew that she would be subjected to emotional and even physical abuse. But to walk away from the engagement would bring shame to her family. To kill herself, because of some “shortcoming” would be more acceptable.
I’m Indian – and Just Me has pretty much articulated exactly my thoughts on this subject.
Very little consideration is given to a woman when it comes to marriage – a woman is a failure if they are not married and do not bear sons. (That’s sons, not children.)
In Indian culture, curvier women are preferred over stick thin – this is something that you will be able to see when you look up famous Bollywood actresses. I think this historically might have something to do with curvier women being perceived as more fertile? (I have nothing to prove this, just statements passed down to me through other Indians).
Indian women who are naturally thin are harassed to gain weight, and Indian women who are overweight-obese are harassed to lose it so that they can attract a man. I am one of the latter, and a work colleague of mine is one of the former.
My work colleague was married at a very young age, and her ex-husband had an affair and before even the divorce had been finalised her mother was trying to arrange her marriage to someone else – it ain’t right being a young, female, Indian single divorcee.
The only other fat abuse I’ve experienced culturally – outside of Indian communities – is being harassed by people in Australia, and having clothes snatched out of my hands by shopkeepers in Thailand and Hong Kong, shrieking at me to get out of their shop – some of them even man-handling me if I didn’t move fast enough for their liking.
To accept that I am fat and proud of it, is to give up on myself.
Very well said.
When I get this right you say that if one cannot achieve personal health and fitness goals while asking society to accept one’s fat body. I cannot speak for you, but daring to ask for acceptance was a major step to achieve both, health and fitness goals. Deciding that my body is okay the way it is even if I stay at my current weight allows me to demand that I have a right to have safe spaces to exercise and get high quality, non-prejudiced health care. It also allows me to focus on joy while exercising, not on weight loss. And most importantly it allows me to demand that people see my achievements not despite me being fat but independent of it.
Also, while it might be true for you that accepting that you are fat is equal to giving up on yourself (something which I doubt, but eventually you are the only person who can decide if this is true for not) it is most definitely not true for me and for a number of other people. Accepting that I am fat and most likely will stay fat allows me to focus my energy on growing in truly meaningful ways instead of pouring all or at least lots of my energy into weight loss.
I’m very surprised that some of the women here experienced “fat abuse” (for want of a better term) in Australia. Just recently, it was reported that we Aussies had overtaken the US as the fattest nation in the world. This news seemed to spark a renewed sense of national pride.
Susan, I don’t really feel you should be all that surprised. I’ve seen some really nasty anti-fat articles from Australia.
Susan, I don’t really feel you should be all that surprised. I’ve seen some really nasty anti-fat articles from Australia.
That’s true. Blame it on our national schizophrenia over the issue, plus our tendency to be blunt. Um, make that very blunt.
Hello, I hail from France. While we have all sizes in the provinces and the country and no problems with it, Paris is a very thin place, and certainly fat-hating. I live in the country, and plumpness is viewed as an asset (the old “she likes food so she likes sex” cliché). However I see very few obese people here, whereas I saw many more in Germany and in America. Our rate for child obesity is shooting up though.
And yes, in Australia I’ve heard some pretty horrible things said. I was really surprised, as I had always been told Oz valued health and fitness over size!
Wow…
I should have taken your warning seriously. That is indeed very depressing.
I live in Aruba, but have many acquaintances living in the Netherlands, and they’ve said that there is definitely an anti-fat attitude in the Netherlands.
I can’t say for sure about all parts of India but in my experience (born and raised in Bangladesh), one is made to feel far more ostracized in those parts of the world. Because not as much of the population is overweight and next to noone is obese (i don’t know stats but i’d say 1 in 500-i.e. my high school that was socio-economically priveleged and had a higher possibility of having a student/individual with higher weight)…anyway, it’s worse in that sense..you feel like a freak, not just fat, but big, genetically *off* in a culture of those that on average weigh under 130lbs.
It’s not as vitriolic though. Or maybe it is…i’m not sure if i have an objective, neutral perspective. I associate nyc with fat-acceptance, compliments and being considered hot shit so in certain ways i’m woefully oblivious to fat hate. It’s a lot more institutionalized in media here though, the body bashing. And the fat hate extends to those that are not overweight or obese in the u.s.a. I think that I’ve read that study on psych net and it was more about the fear of BECOMING FAT as relating to anti fat attitude.
People back home are not as mortified of becoming fat. As far as the men are concerned, it means they have an abundance of food. Women are more concerned, but only to a certain degree. A lot of women i still know back home are trying to GAIN weight and curves, a phenomenon that I NEVER encounter in the states. The idealized figure is an hourglass, on a medium frame 120-160lbs being a fair estimate.
A lot of american women are mortified of going above 125…..thus the fear of fat being that much more magnified in western cultures. In my opinion it has less or little to do with individualistic notions and more to do with wealth, distribution of it, availability of food, famine/natural disasters history that dictate bad or no crops resulting in unstable food sources.
If a country on a general basis worries about having food, its less likely to be worried about having an excess, which they relate to fat (versus lack of self control-what is primarily associated with fat in the u.s.a.)
Maybe if i finally get some sleep I’ll be able to articulate all this better.
Often, the stereotype back home is that of the ‘jolly, fat man’ and with women it swerves to being either buxom and sexy or non-marriage material/slovenly. Age and proportion are the key divide back home between “good fat” and “bad fat” but both concepts do exist.
Things are changing though. Cultural contagion, if you will. I see a lot of american attitudes about weight reflected in the cities/urban communities. size zero’s have officially become a trend over there. Disheartening, really. It used to be the curvy women in Satayjit Rai films that were idolized…now we have bimbo, paris-hilton wannabe twits like kareena kapoor setting trends for a new generation.
I’m Australian, now living in the UK, and have travelled a bit around Europe and Thailand. I’m about a US size 16, and busty which translates as:
fat in Australia. In fact, fat enough to warrant being yelled at on the street (which some other people commented on), mostly when riding a bike or otherwise exercising. In Australia I had to buy clothes in special stores, even department stores don’t go up to my weight. Doctors would routinely suggest I lost weight.
average to plump in the UK. People presume I’ll be interested in diet conversations, but no-one has ever called me fat over here – and in fact when I once mentioned how rude people could be about fat people in Australia, people were surprised that included me. I can buy clothes in department stores, and doctors have never bought up my weight, ever. I often get “complementary” comments from strangers about my breasts though, which irritates me.
Australia and the UK have almost the same average weight and height amongst women, its completely cultural. I think bigger people are more obvious in the UK, as they aren’t publicly shamed for wearing tight clothing or “my gosh” bathers. I spent a while in Finland, a country where practically no one is fat or skinny, all sort of slender, and although I was the fattest person I ever saw there, no one commented or even seemed to notice.
Travel has completely reinforced my ideas that attitudes to fat are socially agreed on, and can be changed. I think my own country could do with some changed ideas on rudeness too, its not just fat people that get shouted at.
I want to comment on the person who is all up in arms over the word Gordita. I thought the whole point of fat acceptance is to move beyond giving positive and negative connotations to words such as fat and skinny. Because I’m fat, i’m not worse than someone who is skinny. It is a word that does not speak about my character, but is a simple description of me. I am fat, with brown hair and light skin. I own the word fat now. My mom has called me gordita, and it’s said affectionately. Just because you can’t understand that, doesn’t mean you have to be upset by it. I’d like to think that because my mom used it as a nickname, it made it easier for me to cope with the teasing I faced in school, because fat wasn’t an insult from my mom, I could deal with the word when it was used as an insult in school. I would almost, always say, yea, I am fat, just like you’re asian, black, white, etc. I don’t see the problem.
According to ladyinanet:
“We have to look at obesity as a symptom of underlying issues ranging that from lack a of education on how to eat healthy and how to exercise to battling depression with out the benefit of professional help.”
I’m very surprised that this comment has not gone unchallenged. My body size is no more a symptom of underlying educational or psychological issues than my eye color is. Research backs me up (Gina Kolata’s “Rethinking Thin”). Fat people are psychologically indistinguishable from the thin, and do not, on average, consume more food than the thin.
Being a fat person is not necessarily evidence of physical or psychological pathology.
Obviously I mean “has gone unchallenged”. :-/
This may seem slightly tacky, and perhaps triggering to some who’ve struggled with thoughts of suicide. I apologize in advance for that.
But I wonder how overweight this woman could possibly have been if her weight could be supported by a ceiling fan. The story makes me think that this poor woman may have been tormented for being “fat” when she may have been fat only in a relative sense, by being “not thin” in a society where everyone must conform to the rigid equation of thinness with beauty.
After reading mog’s comments about Australian attitudes towards fat women, I had a flashback…
Many years ago when I was at my heaviest (a US size 14-16) I used to work in an office near a four-lane highway. To get to the other side, I’d either have to use two pedestrian crossings with very slow lights, or nip across one four-lane highway when the traffic would allow. On an almost daily basis, some jerk would actually change lanes and speed up while coming towards me. As I was wearing business wear and high heels, this was not only intimidating, but downright dangerous.
It was only after I lost weight and this stopped happening that I realised it was a form of fat-bashing. See the fatty run!
Ugh!!!
Re Japan: no, have never been, not sure what the attitude is there.
Re Australia’s fat abuse: Google
fatties bus “daily telegraph”
and read the Comments. This reduced me to incoherent rage on Friday. Maybe worth a blog post by itself?
I’ve lived in Turkey, Venezuela and many other places. I am average in the US, but in both Turkey and Venezuela, I was always the largest person around. I never once saw an obese or even an overweight person in Turkey, no exageration. I lost weight in Turkey – the food is very healthy and the lifestyle requires walking everywhere. I was in Nigeria this month and people say “you’ve gained weight” as a compliment.