Is Fat A Feminist Issue?
In case anyone missed the very interesting discussion in the comments to this post, I wanted turn it into its own post. I feel like there’s a lot more to say about this issue (or at least a lot more I’d love to hear about). In the original post, I talked about the way fat women in particular are addressed on Facebook:
Yes, fat is indeed a feminist issue. If you’re not thin (or you’re fat but you don’t have the mitigating factor of large breasts) you’re not fulfilling your role as sex object of horny college boys, and therefore deserve to be excoriated on Facebook. And if you are fat, you’d better not dress provocatively, or publicly exercise (yes, there are groups for that), or do anything except hide yourself away and lose weight.
I also included a link to this post by Jezebella, listing reasons fat is a feminist issue, including:
5. The more time we spend worrying about our weight, the less happy and productive we are. A woman who spends two hours at the gym every day will never finish her dissertation and get a tenure-track job, nor will she make partner at a law firm, nor will she have time to do things that make HER happy, whether that is knitting, political action, or doing yoga.
7. Why is it a feminist issue? Because only women are hounded for our weight 24/7 in every possible media venue. Because women are constantly being pressured to conform to fuckability standards – weight, hair, makeup, clothes, shoes, and sexual compliance are only some of the things that women are subjected to.
8. Men are not subject to these pressures to conform. Men are only considered fat if they are well over 50 lbs. overweight. Every inch of a man’s body does not have to be fat-free, sculpted, cellulite-free, etc. for him to be considered a real man. A woman with fat on her body (except breasts and hips) is hardly a woman at all.
10. Being fat is considered a failure of personality, of will, of character. For women. Men are encouraged to eat big portions, giant steaks, drippy disgusting burgers and fries: this is considered manly. Women, however, are not supposed to eat in public. Especially fat women.
New reader Matt came by and challenged a couple of things about that post, saying that seeking out fatism is a way to turn ourselves into victims, and adding:
Additionally, contrary to popular belief, fat is not soley a femminist issue. You don’t think fat men are discriminated against? You don’t think we are called names, looked at like we are disgusting? You don’t think people don’t make comments about how a fat guy should dress?
You are sadly mistaken there. Its a common thing though, to internalize the hate. For years I thought BBWs had it so much easier than big men. I mean just look at the pleothra of BBW Chat rooms, BBW night clubs across the country, the relative ease a BBW has at finding clothes to fit ( now I will grant you the styles are horrendous and that is an issue) but as a big man, I don’t get those things. There isn’t a night club dedicated to just BHMs or Chat rooms. Casual Big and Tall barely carries anything over a size 56 pant.
But see, I was internalizing what I was feeling unto myself, a guy.
Fact is Fat and more importantly Fat Hate and Fat Discrimination is a HUMAN ISSUE, sex has nothing to do with it.
A couple of commenters disagreed with him, like spacedcowgirl:
I think this is NOT true. I think fat people of both genders have a really tough row to hoe, but I think that specific issues for fat women are tied up in other people, or patriarchal society, or whatever you want to call it, feeling like they can and should be able to control women’s bodies and dictate what they should look like, occupy women with “busy work” like trying to diet and exercise into a size 4 and keep their bodies hair-free, etc. etc.
MizShrew added:
I’m not trying to minimize the difficulties in finding clothes, clubs, etc. for fat men; but not recognizing the misogynistic aspect of some of these groups, comments, etc. is a mistake, I think. The rise of women-centered fat acceptance chat rooms, night clubs, etc., is a direct response to the very vocal, very direct, and incredibly prevalent attitudes toward fat women in our culture, not a reflection of increased acceptance by that culture. Fat women have had to create their own culture of acceptance.
I found these comments extremely thought-provoking, and I’m interested in hearing what everyone else thinks, especially the men out there. What’s been your experience? Do you think fat is a feminist issue? Does it have a feminist component? Are we in danger of casting ourselves as victims, or alienating men out there, if we talk about it?
Posted by mo pie
Thanks! I appreciate it. I’d like to read the study.
Hi
It seems this topic will never die out in Fat Acceptance, as if Fat Men will forever be honorary members of the community, unless they are also Fat Admirers who seem to be guaranteed a in space in the Fat Acceptance Community.
I think that people that say that being a Fat Man is more acceptable then being a Fat Woman are not asking the real question. I think that the difference in the experiences of Fat Men and Fat Women is due to the fact that it is more acceptable to question, comment on and confront Women than Men. So face to face Fat Men may get off easier, but in the case of indirect or second hand communicate both genders are considered Fat Slobs by the Fat-o-phobic people.
In “Australia which has plenty of Fat hate, the following Powerpoint presentation is something deemed acceptable to be distributed in one of their Universities:
http://arts.anu.edu.au/History/forth/hist2003/HIST2003%20-%2012%20-%20Fat,%20Gender,%20and%20Transgression.ppt
I would not like to be a Fat Guy in that class!.
Mizshrew
How narrow the acceptability of Women’s Bodies is absolutely meaningless to how a Fat Man or Boy feels about how he is treated because of his Fat.
Sitcoms are make-believe and also are meaningless, most of the Fat Characters are still made to look like idiots or wimps.
Hi Lisa
I agree with you about this kind of talk being kind of harmful for Fat Men. I have been a Fat Male all of my life and do not appreciate someone discounting the experiences that I have had because of my sex.
William
Hi Jezebella
I would have more faith in “Fat is a feminist Issue” conversations if they did not seem to center around gauging how much easier Fat Men’s lot in life is than Fat Women’s. It seems that is the only reason the topic of Fat Men is even injected into the conversation.
William
I never said fat mens’ lot in life was easier than fat womens’. FEMINISM IS NOT ABOUT MEN. This conversation is not about men. Not everything is about men, you know. I know that’s hard to swallow for some guys. Feminism is about women, and the patriarchy which oppresses us. (btw, “patriarchy” does not mean “all men”. It refers to a culture-wide system, not individuals, though men do reap the benefits of patriarchy).
I will say this: under patriarchy, women are more oppressed than men. This is a radical feminist viewpoint and it applies to all people, fat, thin, or in-between. Like it or lump it, your choice.
As for this:
“She has not chosen to answer why she says going to the gym stops women from excelling in their careers.”
I’m not saying that. What I *am* saying is that, if I spent the time it would take to be an “acceptable” size 8, or even an average size 12, I’d be chopping vegetables and working out every waking hour of the day. It is simply not going to happen for me unless I make it my first, last, and only priority. I would be too busy and exhausted to enjoy life. I refuse to do this. Life is more than going to work, sleeping, and working the rest of the day at being thin enough to please the patriarchy. Or it should be.
I pity people who give up everything else in their lives to achieve what is ultimately an unattainable goal. Why unattainable? Because even if a woman is “thin enough,” then something else will be wrong. Her boobs will be too big or too small, her hair too long or too short, or she might have wrinkles, or wear the wrong shoes, or be too smart or too stupid. Perfection is a moving target. Women’s bodies are constantly policed in patriarchy, and fat is only one component of that.
Alas, I am too lazy to hunt down citations, but this is my argument regarding medical data on obesity: excess weight is often a side effect of poor health and diet. It is not a cause, it’s an effect. Sure, obese people die a little younger, but why? Is it because they’re fat, or because they have high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, or eat unhealthy diets (all of which can be true of thin people)? Is it because they are depressed by society’s hatred of fat, because long-term depression yields lower life expectancy. And so forth.
Has anyone teased out the data to determine whether the obesity causes the illnesses, or the illnesses cause the obesity? I cannot find that the answer is yes. Positive correlation does not necessarily equal cause-and-effect when other factors aren’t taken into account.
Wow. See, i’m one of those horrible evil people who doesn’t consider myself a Feminist. There are a great many points where i do agree with most Feminists, but there are some points where i think they might be debatable (and no, i’m not going to list or get into them). However, my only experience is as a white female, so i cannot speak from any other perspective.
No matter how bad it gets for me, i’m sure that there’s someone out there who’s going through worse. I refuse to see life as something where i am oppressed, held back and underpaid. Then again, i don’t have much in the way of ambition – i’m okay sitting on a help desk, doing tech support. I’m not trying to work my way up in a work environment that doesn’t allow people to wear jeans to work.
My main problem with saying that “fat is a feminist issue” is that as a single solitary statement, left unexplained, it is inherently exclusionary. So as a single, solitary statement, i do not agree with it. I would say that fat is one of many feminist issues, and that it is also a men’s issue as well – overall, it is something that anyone who is fat (regardless of race or orientation) has to deal with. Hell, considering how often the fear of fat is held over the heads of our skinny brothers and sisters, i’d say it’s an Everyone Issue.
Any sort of “-ism” is going to affect more than just the people against whom it is being held.
Lindsay, the statement wasn’t left “unexplained.” Read the two posts here and mine (linked above) to see explanations.
Secondly, feminism isn’t about “seeing life as being underpaid, oppressed, and held back.” If you believe that women are human, too, and should be treated as such, then you are a feminist. That’s the bottom line.
Fat is not JUST a feminist issue; I never said that. I also never said that fat is the ONLY feminist issue. It is one of many things that can be understood when viewed through feminism.
I would agree, and refer you to Sarah Bunting’s excellent essay making this very point. It’s called Yes, You Are.
Jezebella, the statement has indeed been well explained here. I was stating that when it is not clarified, and left as it’s own thing, it is exclusionary. I have seen it left as its own thing more than once – not here, and not in this discussion, to be sure.
What i am saying is that when people do NOT give that caveat, i do not agree with it. When it is explained, i have no problem with it.
I believe that all people are human, and deserve to be treated as such – that race, gender, size and orientation are invalid excuses for treating anyone without respect. If that makes me a feminist in your eyes, then i am okay with that.
I have known some people who used feminism as a very thinly veiled excuse to indulge in some of the foulest forms of “reverse” discrimination and hatred towards men.
Indeed, one of these people was my mother, and her indoctrination into the world of Men Are All That Is Evil is something that has taken me many years to overcome. As such, i am not personally comfortable with the feminist label… but i do try to not let the feelings about the label affect my feelings about the actual underlying issues. Sometimes it works better than others. My apologies if i was unclear or if i have offended.
About a year ago, The Happy Feminist posted a really terrific Feminism 101 page: http://happyfeminist.typepad.com/happyfeminist/2006/01/feminism_is_not.html, if anyone’s interested in checking out what many notable feminist bloggers agree is the best working definition of feminism.
Re-reading it again made me think how nice it would be to put together something similiar for the fatosphere (hint! hint!). HGWLTE may be very well intentioned/interested in learning, but it isn’t really the responsibility of anyone here to stop the thread and educate her in fat activism/HAES 101.
HGWLTE, I know this may not seem like a big deal to you, but it is common on fat boards for someone to pop onto a thread billing themselves as someone who ‘loves exercise’ and demand definitive scientific prove that fat people can be healthy. Usually, the presumption is that we won’t be able to provide it, and should therefore accept that we are wrong. There is also usually a presumption that no one has ever really challenged us from quite this angle, which, I assure you, is far from the case.
I remember, from grade school, that England has Parliament because of the Magna Carta, but I really don’t remember what the Magna Carta says. That doesn’t mean that if someone asks me what the Magna Carta says and I can’t tell them, there is no English Parliament.
It’s possible you totally mean well, but I just want to let you know that (speaking as someone who has read this type of discussion for a long time), your approach smells condescending. Even your handle sounds a little aggressive, as if you were some kind of health missionary entering a den of unenlightened sloth.
When you’re dealing with a group of people that gets bullied, made fun of and ridiculed a lot, it’s good manners to be a little careful about how you present yourself.
Thanks, and best,
MG
PS – so when are you writing the HAES 101, Mo and Kate?? :-)
I was raised by a man with some pretty strong feminist ideals who taught me that men are “no good” and anything that would even attract one (i.e. wearing makeup, painting my nails) should be my very last priority. This helped me quite a bit because I have grown into an independant, strong, confident woman. I dress for me, get my hair done for me, and wear perfume for ME. However, in many ways it has hurt; I have some serious trust issues (that I’m working on) concerning men. My father taught me all about the patriarchy and it’s way of keeping women “in their place”. It really sucks because as someone trying to reinstate herself into the dating world I am all too aware of the scrutiny we’re under. Jezebella is absolutely right; we will never be thin enough, and if we are, there’s always something “wrong” with how we look. It’s very overwhelming and sometimes makes me want to be single and unattached for the rest of my life.
I (heart) Jezebella. You say everything I try to articulate, in a much more concise and understandable way.
Also, William, I appreciate your perspective and totally agree with you that fat discrimination is a serious and growing issue for both genders, but you have either missed (which frankly would be easy considering the kudzu on this thread that I have also been guilty of contributing to) or are ignoring that many of us have said that in our opinion, the discussion of fat as a feminist issue is specifically NOT about who “has it worse,” women or men. That is beside the point. I agree with Jezebella that body size and people’s attitudes toward it are one of many things that can be understood by viewing through the perspective of feminism. The belief that women should work full-time doing whatever is needed to become “acceptable” appearance-wise is a tool of the patriarchy (as defined by Jezebella) or, if you prefer, mainstream society, that hinders women from determining their own direction in life and from pursuing their own goals and achievements; and weight is only one component of that. But it is a big component.
mo, I was just going to link that Tomato Nation essay so I’m really glad you did it already because now I don’t have to dig it up. Everyone should read it. It is excellent IMO.
Mo Pie – I’d never seen that “Yes, You Are” essay before – it’s outstanding! URL nabbed & blogged.
props.
There is now a whole blog dedicated to Feminism 101: http://finallyfeminism101.blogspot.com
It would serve as an excellent model for anyone with the time and inclination to produce a Fat Activism 101 resource.
William, if you look at my posts, I think I make it clear that I didn’t think it was right to treat fat men poorly, and that any discussion of fat and feminism should not discount the problems that fat men face. I also specifically mentioned that fat male characters in sitcoms are often written as idiots.
If I was not adequately clear, I apologize. It is not my intention to suggest that it is OK for fat men to suffer, or that women’s position within the culture negates your experience as a fat man. But this is a discussion of fat as a feminist issue, and in that context, exploration of the different ways in which men and women are treated is valid and worthwhile, I think, both from a cultural perspective and as a way to move forward.
Just read the link Mo posted (“Yes You Are”) and I have to say that I LOVED it. I agreed with every single word.
This thread might be dead, but I’d like to add something anyway.
It really hurts my heart to see women talk about themselves in the terms of “If you’re a woman and you’re not perfect you’re considered nothing.” Sez who?
Women are more objectified than men. I’m not sure who would argue that’s not true. Hence, the anti-fat hysteria impacts on women in a more direct way. If we’re suppose to be objects, commodities if you will, then it behooves us to try to be the most valuable commodity we can be. So you’re not considered “nothing” if you’re imperfect, were that true there wouldn’t be one single fat or chubby person with friends, lovers, spouses, ect. No, it’s that you’re considered a less valuable commodity. And in a societal set-up where we flat out judge people according to this type of value (good looks, money, the biggest, bestest car/i-phone/motor boat on the block, that kind of thing) it makes sense that we’re going increasingly crazy in our attempts to make ourselves as an expensive commodity as possible, to keep up with the Joneses, especially if Ms. Jones is a size 2. And it’s shallow (of course feminists can be shallow). And it leaves us emotionally empty.
And that’s both the feminist and humanistic issue that we need to explore more carefully. To what extent do we buy into the idea that we really need to achieve perfection or our lives have no value? Marx once said that religion was the opiate of the masses. I would say in modern society, idealism is the opiate of the masses. As long as we work to achieve some kind of perfection on a physical level, we’re not going to look at the massive problems of the world and how we can contribute to fixing them. We’re too self-absorbed to notice, too fixated on the personal instead of the political.
So I consider fat acceptance a feminist issue, and a human rights issue. The point isn’t how do we figure out how to better fit into a sick and heartless society, a society that insists on judging books by their covers, and then has the audacity to say that they’re doing it in the name of our health! I think we need to collectively figure out how to better NOT fit into this society, and therefore, have the strength and clarity necessary to transform it into something better.
so sad i missed most of this discussion…i dont argue that fat men have their own issues. but fat is a feminist issue because fat men and fat women are treated DIFFERENTLY. If you said “violence against women is a feminist issue”, no one would say, wait wait theres violence against men so you are being exclusive. Violence against men is as much a result of the patriarchal structure of society so yes its a feminist issue, but it is reflected DIFFERENTLY according to gender. If feminists, men and women both, addressed the treatment of women in GENERAL it would do much good for both genders with regard to fat acceptance.
furthermore, it makes me said to hear women saying that being a feminist is akin to labeling yourself as a victim. Just because you see injustice and you work against it, doesnt mean you can achieve and do things in your life. challenging the fact that women get paid less than men doesnt necessarily mean lets just give up on earning money altogether!
*Sigh*
Women, BUT NOT MEN, suffer economically for being overweight.
If for no other reason, THAT is why “fat is still a feminist issue”.
End Trans.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/05/28/womens_weight_found_to_affect_job_income/
Hi Jezebella
I never said you said that, in fact you said the reverse. You did say that saying that Fat is a Feminist Issue is not about who is the most oppressed (Fat men or women).
I answered that just about every “Fat is Feminist” conversation I have heard contained considerable comments on how much more accepted Fat Men are than Fat Women. It is a core component of the conversation.
As a 300 lb Fat Man I have had women 180 lb and less telling me how easy I have had it.
William
Hi Spacedcowgirl
I hope that my message did not come across as if Fat Women are not more oppressed than Fat Men. I am talking about social acceptance.
I help moderate a forum 98% full of Fat Women sharing their experiences and I know that most of them have suffered more than me. Still my observations from frequenting areas where primarily Straight Fat Men gather and I find that most seem more inhibited by their bodies than Fat Women.
William
William, consider this:
At what weight does a woman start being considered fat? At what weight does a man start being called fat?
I submit that society has a MUCH higher threshold for fat on men than it does for fat on women. Just look at the entertainment press: Scarlett Johanssen and Kate Winslet are considered “fat”. They’re not. When does a man get called fat? When he’s got a big ol’ gut. I’ve never seen a close-up picture of a man’s ass in any magazine or online with a headline saying something like, “Nicholson’s got cellulite!” “Philip Seymour Hoffman tells us he’s okay with his curves!”
Women’s bodies are policed, stringently, and constantly. I never see men in Weight Watchers’ ads. I’m telling you: fat men are discriminated against, but by cultural standards, you get a lot more leeway before you enter that category.
Hi Jezzebella
Once a person is fat the threshold of their gender really meaningless in how they are accepted and a case like me being 10.5 lbs at birth I was born fat and always have been fat and always perceived as Fat.
I am sorry but the weight problems of women like Scarlett Johanssen and Kate Winslet are not Fat Issues and unless either one of them have been well over 200 lbs they have no experience with being Fat and their problems may be a Feminist Issue but not a Fat Issue.
William
William
I see your point there, but the fact that the media makes the size of women that small into a “fat issue” sort of makes it a “fat issue”… if that makes any sense. Like, if women that thin are scrutinized for their weight, it translates to pressure on women in society as a whole who feel they always need to be just that little bit thinner to escape criticism and judgment.
When a culture agrees that a perfectly darling young woman of below-average weight is “fat” (i.e. Johannsen and Winslet), that affects the women in that culture. We all think we are fat the minute we realize we’re not built like Paris Hilton.
You say that a woman doesn’t have “fat issues” if she’s over 200 lbs, but that’s not where our culture says she’s fat. Who are you to say that a woman isn’t dealing with fat issues unless YOU think she’s fat? Hell, anorexia and bulimia are fat issues, when it comes down to it. Those girls aren’t fat but they are HORRIFIED by the idea of being fat. I call that a fat issue.
^ ^ ^
Jezebella, I’m not going to talk here anymore. I’m just going to clap and cheer when you talk.
Srsly.
Hi Jezebella
I do not think that society even puts people like Johannsen and Winslet in the same genus pool as Fat People. They have Size Acceptance issues but not Fat Issues. I recently saw articles where Ice “T” and Harrison Ford were ridiculed for going topless on the beach, they were said to be out of shape, but not obese.
I said that Johannsen and Winslet do not have Fat Issues and that unless one of them was well over 200 lbs then they have no experience on being Fat (obese). Because of muscle and bone size men are expected to have a slightly higher weight
I used 200 lbs because needed to pick a number but it varies with different body genetics and height.
Personally I feel that we should not dilute the Fat Acceptance mission.
William
Body Image is THE Feminist Issue: Blame Media
William, there are lots of issues in Fat Acceptance, and you are dismissing women’s issues as “dilution.” It’s not. It’s real-life stuff, and it’s the reason fat girls are less likely to graduate college, it’s the reason fat women suffer more from depression, it’s HALF THE FAT PLANET. Your refusal to acknowledge the different experiences of fat women is sheer patriarchal entitlement. There is room in Fat Acceptance for feminist issues, whether you wish to acknowledge that or not. Fat Issues have to do with race, poverty, nutrition, medicine, politics, and feminism, among many other things.
Until you acknowledge that, you are not a true ally to fat women.
Hi Jezebella
I am sad to hear you talk like this. I am not dismissing Fat Women’s issues, but I feel there is a way to express Fat Women’s Issues without minimizing Fat Male issues and their life experiences.
When Fat Women share their experiences I am the first to support them. When I read recent comments from people like:
“today men also are starting to experience fat discrimination” I am the first to be their to exclaim that Fat Men have been discriminated against for as long as I remember.
From the locker room at Elementary School as a boy to any adult locker room a Fat Man may be in, society’s views are present.
Also I pointed out that Fat Women do get more opposition, but that is not same as the acceptability of either gender being fat which is what I have focused on!
On the beach or on the internet straight Fat Men are far less likely disrobe then Fat Women. If it was more acceptable for Fat Men to be Fat then you would see far more Fat Men in revealing clothes or in public wearing swim-wear.
All I am saying to you is don’t edit out the experiences of Fat Men in your conversation.
Unlike you I will not say you are not a ally of Fat Men, but you have a distorted view of our experiences.
William
Well, I’m a feminist first, fat second. I’m not editing out men’s experiences, but frankly, I think you all do a fine job of representing yourselves already. You don’t need me to do that. I speak for myself as a woman. Period.
In our culture, the default human is male. It’s assumed that any conversation about humans is about men first, and oh, maybe women, too. As a feminist, it’s not my job to constantly refer to men’s experiences. I certainly don’t hear men acknowledging MY point of view in most conversations.
Your unwillingness to include feminism as one of the issues in fat acceptance is a typical example of what we feminists like to call “what about teh menz?” In which, if I say, “women experience ABC,” a man says, “But what about the men! So do we!” And then the women’s point of view gets squashed with lots of menz going on about how life isn’t fair because women are distracting people from the REAL issue, which of course isn’t anything to do with WOMEN, after all.
I remind you: women are half the fat planet.
Hi Jezebella
Let me say that I have no doubt that Fat is a Feminist Issue, but what you need to ask yourself is if Feminism to you such a huge issue that it cancels out the word Fat in the words “Fat Male”.
In your last post you mainly talked of males and females while I have only focused on Fat People (female and male).
You said:
“As a feminist, it’s not my job to constantly refer to men’s experiences.”
Too late you already have done this when you make statements that limit and define the experiences of a
whole other group of Fat People (fat men).
You also said:
….. FEMINISM IS NOT ABOUT MEN. This conversation is not about men. Not everything is about men, you know. I know that’s hard to swallow for some guys. Feminism is about women……
This topic is not only about Feminism, half of it is about Fat and like it or not Fat Men exist.
I think that the real question of this thread is “Is Fat Primarily a Feminist Issue” because of comments like these:
……..Why is it a feminist issue? Because only women are hounded for our weight 24/7 in every possible media venue. Because women are constantly being pressured to conform to fuckability standards – weight, hair, makeup, clothes, shoes, and sexual compliance are only some of the things that women are subjected to.
Men are not subject to these pressures to conform. Men are only considered fat if they are well over 50 lbs. overweight. Every inch of a man’s body does not have to be fat-free, sculpted, cellulite-free, etc. for him to be considered a real man. A woman with fat on her body (except breasts and hips) is hardly a woman at all…….
If the above is true then where are the Fat Men on the beaches, or playing sports without shirts, where are the fat men on fashion magazines and advertisements? There are not even Fat Men in Fat Male clothes catalogs!! How many fat male movie stars are out there that play fat characters that fight evil? Why aren’t magazines like Mens Health saying that it is OK not to have abs of steel.
I could say that in may ways Fat Women have it easier because women are suppose to fatter than men because they have babies, that having a fat butt and fat breasts do not effect Fat Women on the same scale as it does Fat Males. I could say that Fat Women have a easier time than Fat Males being described as a soft bodies.
Just as all politics are local and all feelings are personal. We can identify with what each other experiences, but we can not compare because we truly do not know what the other person has experienced.
The differences in the experiences of Fat Men and Women can not be explained in a sentence or two.
William
“I could say that in may ways Fat Women have it easier because women are suppose to fatter than men because they have babies, that having a fat butt and fat breasts do not effect Fat Women on the same scale as it does Fat Males. I could say that Fat Women have a easier time than Fat Males being described as a soft bodies.”
THIS is the crux of our disagreement. You are thinking competitively: your pain is bigger than my pain. This is NOT the way to think. MY pain is DIFFERENT than YOUR pain. Not easier. Oh, no, NOT easier. But of course, you think it is. And that is why you dismiss feminism.
It’s always ‘what about teh menz’ with you guys. You always think you have it worse. Always.
Hi Jezebella
The difference between us is that I was using those statements about Fat Women as a analogy toward some of the similar statements made by people here about the experiences of Fat men. I do not believe that any of those facts about Fat Women that I listed makes the experiences of Fat Women any less. Neither do I think that the experiences of Fat Women lessen the Experiences of Fat Men.
I do not think competitively, outside of conversations like this I speak of Fat People. Of course I am focusing on the Fat Male side of issue in this thread, I should say that there were also several other freethinkers in this conversation, but not enough.
The only reason that I am focusing in the Fat Male side of the Issue is that too much of the conversation here has been about minimizing the Fat Male experience. I am not the one that has been making the comparisons in this conversation and I have never minimized the experiences of Fat Women.
William
Wow, this has taken on a whole new life of its own hasn’t it?
As I stated previously I don’t think Fat is is SOLELY a femminist issue. That is where I was taking my umbrage with the discussion at hand at the time.
If you want to be technical, then yes, it is a Femminist Issue.
But is also a Male Issue
A Older person issue
A younger person issue
A Gay or Straight person issue.
Again, as I stated before it is a HUMAN issue.
That was the crux of my point.
It was my perception that this entire blog was about Fat issues first and foremost, not femminist issues.
Nowhere did I say “what about me” because I am a male. I simply pointed out, from a fat males perspective that we too have to deal with the same issues, the degree of which really doesn’t matter.
If as a community we are to ever expect to change the view of the world about people of size then we have to do it collectively, not independent of eachothers gender.
Fat is a Feminist issue.
Here’s what I see as the crux of the problem that MOST fat men have had, do have, and more than likely, will have in future with this statement. Left to stand alone it is-
OPEN ENDED and is easily interpreted as divisive.
There are examples all over the internet of the written word failing to completely convey a point. Perhaps this is one of those times. Shall we test it with a bit of emphasis on some of the more critical words and see what subtext that might bring?
A) Fat *IS* a Feminist issue. . . Despite the fact that it is, at best, ignored by the Feminist community or, at worst, denigrated with a viciousness that could almost rival a, woman objectifying, misogynists.
B) Fat is a *FEMINIST* issue. . . Therefore Males (fat or otherwise) have no valid or relevant input.
Both statements may be logically inferred, however I think we can all agree that ONE is more inflammatory than the other. As to that; how many times and in how many forums has this statement been made? How often did males (like myself) appear objecting, disagreeing , or citing examples of inclusive oppression. What’s up with THAT? Why does it happen so often?
Perhaps because, in the context of statement B) the statement IS competitive / confrontational. It says, or at the very least IMPLIES that the oppression of fat bigotry is (*exclusively*) a female condition. It says / implies; ‘We are claiming Fat as an active Cause and anyone not Female enough to be included need not apply’. That would make it appear not only divisive but actively exclusionary.
I’ve seen arguments in this very thread to the effect that this is not about who suffers more discrimination followed closely by examples of why X suffers more than Y. Well, perhaps fat men will have to wait until we are passed over (Been there done that. New Boss was thinner, had less experience, oh- and was female), paid less (Doing that one right NOW), or until the diet industrial complex comes after us. Although I doubt John Basedow and most of the other fitness based diet scams are trying to sell six pack abs to many females. Dan Marino (former NFL QB) crowing about how he got back to his playing weight with NutriWhatever? Can’t see that appealing to lots of woman. Well, ‘least men aren’t being convinced to mutilate their own bodies. . . . Wait, ‘pectoral enhancement’ does rival breast implants in some places and liposuction isn’t just for women anymore. Anorexia? Zero body fat + compulsive exercise. We don’t really need to discuss WLS, do we?
Tell you what, lets agree that it’s a sick, twisted world we happen to inhabit and leave it at that, shall we? As I think I mentioned earlier; There really is enough self loathing to overcome in the fat community without further subdividing ourselves and handing out even MORE unacceptable attributes / criteria that some of our number cannot change.
Hi B4C
I agree with so much of what you said. I think on one level Fat Males and Gender conflict in a way not many Fat Women can identify with and to have our experiences so easily brushed aside creates problems.
I have just downloaded this paper:
Body & Society, Vol. 13, No. 1, 107-131 (2007)
DOI: 10.1177/1357034X07074780
© 2007 SAGE Publications
Feminism and the Invisible Fat Man
Kirsten Bell
Anthropology Department at Macquarie University in Sydney, Australia
Hi B4C
I agree with so much of what you said. I think on one level Fat Males and Gender conflict in a way not many Fat Women can identify with and to have our experiences so easily brushed aside creates problems.
I have just downloaded this paper:
Body & Society, Vol. 13, No. 1, 107-131 (2007)
DOI: 10.1177/1357034X07074780
© 2007 SAGE Publications
Feminism and the Invisible Fat Man
Kirsten Bell
Anthropology Department at Macquarie University in Sydney, Australia
http://bod.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/13/1/107
It seems to be good even though Australia has some very warped ideas on fat and especially fat males.
It will have to yet to tomorrow night for me to read it, it is 26 pages of pdf pages.
William
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