Fat Acceptance And Feminism (Again)
It’s been three years since we asked Is Fat A Feminist Issue? And over the past few days, the subject has come up again. And how.
I’d seen some stirrings on Twitter, while I was out of town for the weekend, about a problematic post on Feministe, but I didn’t have a chance to go read it.
Then this morning, I read this terrific post from Meowser on the controversy, as well as the strawman version of Fat Acceptance that is being engaged by some feminist bloggers.
We say, “What causes people to weigh what they do is complex and multifactorial, and varies a lot from one person to another — and you can’t tell what people’s habits are by their pants size.” They hear, “Weight is purely inherited and has nothing whatsoever to do with behavior.” (Uh, no. Try the behavioral factors have been played to fucking death in the media, and we really, really don’t need to flog them yet again. Also, try dieting is a behavior too, and it makes most people who try it fatter, not thinner, especially if they take it up in childhood.)
Meowser also pointed to this post by Aunt B, which is well worth a read.
I just don’t see how any discussion that involves people policing women’s bodies and trying to dictate what women do with them can ever be feminist.
“Weight can signal a lack of activity or too many donuts, and that shouldn’t irk anyone,” Monica says. But that’s not a cultural critique. That’s an invitation to stick our noses into the business of women who are somehow “signaling” by being fat.
Again, I feel like this is a point that feminists would mull over–does a body, merely by being a body, signal anything? If my having big boobs tells you nothing about whether I’m a slut, why are you so sure it tells you anything about whether I’ve had too many donuts?
Here are the reasons fat is a feminist issue that I quoted back in 2007.
Why is it a feminist issue? Because only women are hounded for our weight 24/7 in every possible media venue. Because women are constantly being pressured to conform to fuckability standards – weight, hair, makeup, clothes, shoes, and sexual compliance are only some of the things that women are subjected to…
Men are not subject to these pressures to conform. Men are only considered fat if they are well over 50 lbs. overweight. Every inch of a man’s body does not have to be fat-free, sculpted, cellulite-free, etc. for him to be considered a real man. A woman with fat on her body (except breasts and hips) is hardly a woman at all.
Yes, fat acceptance also includes men, and men also deal with fatism and self-esteem issues and pressure to have more ideal bodies. And body acceptance extends to everyone: fat, thin, in between, because we are all faced with a world full of unrealistic standards. So fat is not a feminist issue to the exclusion of anyone who is not a fat woman.
But should feminists consider fat a feminist issue? Do they have a responsibility to consider that fat shaming affects women disproportionately, or that a woman owning her body—the same body autonomy that feminists argue so vehemently for when it comes to sexuality— extends to her owning of its fat percentage? Absolutely.
Posted by mo pie
Women will always be judged by their looks, that is why I am repulsed by Miss America beauty pagents, also the little children also entering by there southern moms.
Yes, I noticed its mostly the south that forces and sends this message to their you future beauty queens that looks matter only.
Men don’t know it but we judge you also its just not advertised as they do for women.
Who are you kidding ? Some of them have bad hygene.
No matter what age a man turns young or old they want a photo on the dating site first.
You are to be judged.
But women who are strong , this will not faze us and we have one up on men. We are stronger. We can live alone if need be and still have a fullfilling life .
Men can not.
When applying for employment we are judged by our looks , etc.
One job ad my sister sent stated for a receptionist job must be attractive please send photo.
My reply was send a photo of a monkey .
Here’s to all who judge us.
We don’t care what you think !!!
I am woman hear me roar ……….
Helen reading song …..
I will live the way I want, eat the way want, dress the way I want
Those who judge take a real good look in the mirror without your clothes on …..
Tell me your perfect …………NOT
Hi
I think that the Mo Pie’s original post gave the answer to this question. Fat is a Feminist issue, but not to the exclusion of all other people in Fat Acceptance. Feminist ideology is fine as long as it does not trespass on the Fat Acceptance journey of others. Then it becomes a Fat Feminist Issue.
Both Fat Acceptance and Feminism has a singleness of purpose or Mission Statement and often these goals are not 100% compatible.
Hi Barbara
If you had given a reply using a more Fat Acceptance ideology then you have to accept that Fat Men are judged by their appearance; on the job, socially and in public (the news, blogs, radio, magazines & etc). You would have to accept that Fat Men’s bodies are not accepted, that their sexual performance (until this week) and gender-health have long been under a constant attack from society.
Seconded so hard! Anything that says women must look a certain way and conform to an aesthetical standard is a feminist issue. I can’t believe we are still dealing with this “Determining factors by someone’s appearance” crap.
I think it’s clear that gender has an effect on how fat stigma affects people. I think that fat is a feminist issue even in the case of stigma for fat men, since fat men are often seen as less manly or even feminized, and that’s part of how they’re stigmatized (although not the only reason). These things would still be somewhat problematic in the absence of any misogyny, but misogyny and the cult of masculinity makes them 1000 times worse.
(I can’t remember if “cult of masculinity” is a phrase I’ve actually heard used in feminism, or just something that I made up, but my boyfriend and I use it all the time. Basically, the part of the kyriarchy where masculine traits (culturally defined as well as biologically) are valued because they’re masculine, all men are in a competition for who’s the most masculine, and the most masculine one “wins”–is the alpha male, etc.)
I think that women are more strongly affected by fat stigma at lower weights. Men and women are both considered less attractive with “extra” fat, but society places more importance on women being aesthetically near-perfect. I really think that lessening fat stigma and lessening the pressure on women to be decorative would both greatly decrease the prevalence of eating disorders.
Feminist ideology is fine as long as it does not trespass on the Fat Acceptance journey of others.
William, I’m not sure what you mean by “trespass”. It could mean that you think we should always put FA before feminism, or it could mean that we should balance FA and feminist concerns rather than having feminism always take precedence.
Personally, I think that in the long run there shouldn’t be any conflict between fighting different “isms”. In the short run and in the real world, though, that’s obviously not how it always plays out. But I think it’s important to try not to sacrifice one struggle for equality in our attempts to advance another.
Hi closetpuritan
Many Feminists like to insert Feminist terms and ideology (Kyriarchy, Patriarchy, Misogyny & etc.) into Fat Acceptance and apply them to Fat Acceptance concepts. This may be agreeable to Feminism, but I have not seen any Fat Acceptance Consensus on this practice.
If a person does not agree with the idea that is produced by this mixture of Feminism and Fat Acceptance then the Fat Acceptance concept is diluted and made less meaningful than it was as a standalone concept.
I do think that in the Fat Community that FA should be more important than Feminism.
I do think that in the Fat Community that FA should be more important than Feminism.
Well, that didn’t work out so well for, say, feminists who thought that feminism should be more important than any other isms. One result was that most black women were not interested in being part of the feminist movement, and often, if they were involved/are involved in the struggle for women’s rights at all, called/call themselves womanists to avoid the feminism label.
Your position seems to be that feminist language is driving people away, but with an implicit assumption that trying to get rid of feminist language would NOT drive people away. I have to disagree with you there.
I have not seen any Fat Acceptance Consensus on this practice.
I haven’t seen much of a Fat Acceptance consensus on anything besides the idea that fat people shouldn’t be discriminated against. Do we have to call some big meeting to decide what words we’re allowed to use? How about everyone uses the words they think are most appropriate and are most meaningful to them?
I think if, for example, you think there’s a lack of blogs that are low-feminism enough for you to feel comfortable with, that means there’s a need that YOU can fill on your blog or by creating a feed for that with other like-minded bloggers, rather than arguing for veto power over what other fatosphere bloggers can say. Personally, I think it’s better to have several different approaches to FA out there, so that many different people can find one that will appeal to them and be likely to get them involved. I don’t see that as a dilution.
P.S. I would agree with FA being more important in the sense that it should be the primary topic, but that’s not going nearly as far as you would like.
Hi closetpuritan
Lets say that in this diverse Fat Acceptance community one camp is going to support the idea that much of Fat Male fat issues and bias comes from the Patriarchy and Misogyny. That alone could become an issue of debate within Fat Acceptance. Why not simply focus on fighting the fat bias, instead of debating what exactly caused it? Should Fat Men in Fat Acceptance be forced to accept this theory?
@William
Nobody is going to “force” you to accept anything. People are free to speculate, wonder, and debate. However, knowing what causes fat bias can be a powerful tool in helping to fight it.
Perhaps a better question could be, “Why feel threatened by somebody else’s theory about what causes fat bias, when they clearly share your goal of helping end that bias?”
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I just saw this post at Bitch magazine about fat acceptance. The post does not even mention feminism, but their take on the issue obviously dovetails really well with feminist concerns, and I think it illustrates why this IS a feminist issue. (Also it is a nice palate cleanser after that stupid Feministe piece.)
Yay, that post is by Tasha Fierce! She is fierce. (And yes, on the palate cleanser. Blech.)
As a practical matter,certain phrases/comparisons do drive me away from FA discussion boards.
My fatness was the scapegoat in an alcoholic family. I was only given opportunities to lose weight. My entire self image is still based upon being a fat teen – including a suicide attempt during my high school years.
So when a comment is made (and I realize these comments are aimed at a more generic population) about “fat men having it easier than fat women,” I just stop. Again, I realize that it’s just a general comment, but it takes someone like me out of the discussion – it makes me feel combative with the commenter, not like we’re on the same team.
I don’t know if fat is a feminist issue, but I kind of wish that it wasn’t.
Comparisons may be, and often are, odious…but saying that fat is a feminist issue doesn’t mean it’s not a men’s issue as well. Feminism isn’t only about women, and it doesn’t seek to exclude men–only to remove them from a default and privileged position at the center of every discussion.
My dictionary defines feminism as “a movement seeking political, social, and economic equality between men and women.” By that definition, then a lot of people–men and women–are feminists whether or not they use the name. By that definition, fat, as a feminist issue (which is fairly appropriate, given the way fat often genders men as “more feminine” and yet somehow also genders women as LESS “feminine”) is a concern for anyone who values equality. After all, it’s nothing new for women to be concerned about, interested in, or invested in arenas that were long defined as “men’s issues.” Those men’s issues (politics, money, war) have always been of immense concern to, and had immense impact on, women. So it is with fat and feminism–fat may be (and I’d argue that it is) a feminist issue, but that in no way detracts from its interest to and effect on men. Calling it a feminist issue does two things: one, it points up the fact that fat in women generally is less tolerated, across North American cultures, than fat in men, and, two, it highlights how profoundly we’re attached to our gender roles and stereotypes (since one of the things that, culturally, we can’t seem to forgive is that traditional gender roles get mixed up by fatness.) It doesn’t invalidate anyone’s personal experience or suffering.
And, you know, if women just stopped every time we came across a discussion that DID put men’s experience by default into the center, or that seemed to ignore or devalue our experiences and perspectives…we’d have little left to read and even fewer venues in which to speak. We couldn’t read People magazine or the New York Times or watch TV news or C-Span. We have the choice to just stop, I guess, but we’re lucky that the women who brought us the freedoms and voices that we have chose otherwise.
William,
I guess I don’t see debate as necessarily damaging to the FA movement, and you do.
“Should Fat Men in Fat Acceptance be forced to accept this theory?”
No, I’m not one of those people who is in favor of coercion as long as they like the results. Just as I think it’s wrong to try to force women not to use terms that come from feminism or talk about feminism in FA spaces, I don’t think anyone should be forced to accept feminist ideas.
Mike R.,
I think that perhaps more important than WHAT the actual answer is to the question, “Do fat women have it harder than fat men?” is HOW you use it–people should not use it Oppression-Olympics-style to discount the hardships or discrimination that other people deal with. The fact that this does happen is unfortunate.
Hi Simone
In the case of Fat Men what I can envision happening is that the Feminist theory of Fat Male Bias becoming the standard theory in Fat Acceptance merely because it is the idea that gets thrown around the most.
As is almost nothing in Fat Acceptance about Fat Men that is accepted as fact has been imputed from information from Fat Men. In the NAAFA years some guy with a Fat Fetish had more say over what was the Fat Male experience than a Fat Guy! Fat Acceptance is not just about fighting fat bias, there is a Fat Knowledgebase or history being created and it is important that the facts are right.
It seems to me that a man’s experience of being fat can never be truly commensurate with a woman’s experience due to male privilege and the fact that, in our society, women are an oppressed class. That being the case, it makes sense that FA is generally couched in feminist terms. Feminism has expanded to include other “isms” and, as other commenters have stated, the fact that FA has primarily to do with ending the policing of people’s bodies makes it of concern to feminists.
That isn’t to say that fat men have an easy time of it (trust me), just that the experience is likely to be fundamentally different from that of a fat woman.
Hi closetpuritan
I am not objecting to debate or even the use of Feminist terms. When a person/group chooses to slant the experiences/history of another group to fit their own paradigm, they are taking a liberty that they do not own. Society at large has forever been deciding what are the attributes of Fat People without input from Fat People. The practice is no better when used within the Fat Community on a subset.
Hi Cat
I do not think that I has said it, but I know that Fat is a Feminist Issue!
What drives me is that I think that inclusion of Fat Men and their experiences is more of a priority within the mainstream Fat Acceptance (FA) Community than the Feminist FA Community. Mainstream FA is not trying to fit the Fat Male Experience into the Feminist Paradigm (replacing what little has been shared by Fat Men in FA)
What I am disagreeing with is not the occasional need to place Feminism in the center of the FA conversation. What I think is wrong is the rewriting of Fat Male history to fit what Feminism has to say about men in general.
I do not want you to think that I am anti-Feminist; I see Fat Acceptance and Feminism fighting for many of the same goals. I just think that Fat Acceptance better serves Fat Men.
I also want to thank you for a refreshing comment on Fat Gender. Fat Acceptance has long been comfortable discussing the gender and sexual issues of Fat Men. What Fat Acceptance has avoided are a proportional number of conversations on de-feminizing, androgynous and masculizing aspects of fat & women.
“there is a Fat Knowledgebase or history being created and it is important that the facts are right.”
If you’re talking about your example of theories as to why fat men are discriminated against, I don’t think there can ever be “facts” involved, just theories; even the person doing the discriminating doesn’t necessarily know why they’re doing it. We often make up “rational” reasons after the fact for why we do what we do.
“When a person/group chooses to slant the experiences/history of another group to fit their own paradigm,”
Yes, misrepresenting people’s experience is bad. I have not personally seen conversations that do that, but I don’t think I’ve been around the fatosphere as long as you.
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