The Goldilocks Paradox
There’s a conversation going on in the comments about whether some people look better when they’re heavier. The discussion started with Rhonwyn’s comment right here:
[w]hile I’m on the subject of Queen Latifah and losing weight: do any of you think some people just look better when they’re heavier? I hardly recognized Star Jones after her bariatric surgery. She was beautiful as a larger woman, but now I don’t think so.
Or am I just prejudiced against fat people who lose weight?
Some responses:
i_geek:
I agree with you. I think it has to do with each person’s weight setpoint. I look at the face. If it looks healthy, then I tend to assume that the person it’s on is also healthy, regardless of weight. Look at the Shapelings in Kate’s BMI project. Their faces glow with health and radiate beauty, whether they’re “underweight” or “morbidly obese”.
Bree:
I also believe some women look better heavier, and Star Jones is one of them. After she had her WLS, her face got so gaunt. She didn’t look healthy. Carnie Wilson looked great when she was big too. Renee Zellwegger is another that looks a lot pretter with meat on her bones. She just doesn’t have the facial structure and features to pull off extremely thin. I don’t know if she uses Botox (I suspect it), but when she drops weight for roles, her face looks so unnatural. Not everyone is supposed to be a walking skeleton.
SRGal:
I don’t see anything wrong with Queen Latifah wanting to lose weight. It’s her decision. Maybe she feels that she’ll be more comfortable if she loses a few pounds.
If she’s beautiful as a larger women, she’ll still be beautiful as a smaller person. I mean, beauty comes from the inside, right?
It’s a slippery slope; can we judge people for being “too skinny” and then complain when people judge us for being “too fat”? And yet I still share some of these opinions. I think Renee Zelwegger does look better when she’s not at her thinnest. I think Star Jones did look weird when she lost all that weight. Can we have different rules for celebrities who are straining to fit the Hollywood ideal? Probably not.
And then there’s a model named Geo Burke. She used to be a size 18 (“hard to believe”!) and now she’s a size 14 (a “positive role model”!) At her current size, her agent is happy to represent her as a plus-size model, and she says: “Hopefully I can show people that you don’t have to be skinny to be beautiful.”
What would happen if she were a size 16? Or a size 20? Or a size 12? (Remember that Sarah the “plus size model” got kicked off of America’s Next Top Model for losing weight, and therefore being in between “normal” and “plus size.”)
It seems like in the case of Geo Banks, or Star Jones, or possibly even people we know, we quietly decide there’s a perfect weight just for them—not too fat, not too skinny, but just right. Is this connected to health? To aspiration? To how attractive they are to us? To how hot or cold the porridge is? Is anyone entitled to determine what the “just right” point is for someone else? Is Star Jones entitled to look like a llama if she wants to, and are we obligated to keep our mouths shut about it? Personally, I’m confused, and I want to know. What do you think?
Posted by mo pie
Filed under: Celebrities, Goldilocks Paradox, Gossip, Meta, Queen Latifah, Question, Renee Zelwegger, Star Jones, Weight Loss, WLS
Personally, I don’t feel there is ever a “right” weight for women as defined by the media. It’s either snarking on a celebrity for gaining too much weight or suggesting outright they have an eating disorder if they lose too much. Womens’ weights will always be subject to critiques, regardless of where their BMI falls. I mean, we wouldn’t want women to ever feel comfortable with and confident in themselves, right? God, no.
As for evaluating Star Jones and such, I don’t think it’s even about whether she was prettier at her highest weight or if she now resembles Skeletor at her lowest weight. For me, it isn’t about beauty, its about health and I don’t think she looked healthy after her sudden and dramatic weight loss. Loose skin, deep circles under your eyes, bad complexion… all of this should be taken as a warning sign of poor health.
I agree that Star Jones didn’t look healthy when she lost all that weight. I don’t blame the weightloss though…I blame the bariatric surgery and a weightloss that was too sudden.
She probably would have looked just fine if she’d lost the weight 1-2 lbs a week (or slower) since that way, their probably wouldn’t have been so much excess skin. With that surgery, you can hardly eat anything and I’ll bet she wasn’t getting enough calories or the right nutrition to keep herself looking healthy.
This is something I run into a lot. When I see an actress or just everyday woman and I’m all, “omg she’s gorgeous!”, I feel a little guilty because I’m judging people based on appearance. Granted, my idea of physical beauty is pretty skewed from the mainstream, but still, isn’t judging people wrong? I think people should be entitled to look how they want to look, social norms be damned, but I think there’s a very, very thin line between women being *convinced* they want to look a certain way and women actually wanting to look a certain way. If that makes sense.
I agree with the argument for health but how can we know if a person is truly healthy or not? Appearance alone can’t be the decider, as most people would look at a number of us and label us as unhealthy.
Everyone has the right to their own body and life – and Latifah or Star Jones can be as big or small as they wish and can be. Or healthy or unhealthy. That’s the most important thing: and Latifah will still have an awesome voice and make me laugh regardless if she’s a little smaller. She’s brilliant. And beautiful, no doubt.
I don’t think we can judge the health of others based on aesthetics – we seem awfully bad at that, and it’s really, really been a common dehumanizing tool to mark others as health risks or disease carriers. In the most basic, we don’t “pay” Latifah to be healthy by our determination – we pay her because she’s funny, smart, and has a great voice. Since she’s in the public sphere, her aesthetic appeal is also part of what allowed her access; although as a fat black female (and possibly queer?) rapper in the 80s, regardless of how gorgeous she is, I’m pretty sure it’s the person she is that put her there, rather than her looks. She’s a powerful force.
On pure aesthetics, I think one of the things the fat-o-sphere does is help us to learn the beauty in fat people. This is not a denial of the beauty in thin people. Star Jones might be a more beautiful fat person by certain trends in fat aesthetics than she makes a skinny person by certain trends of skinny aesthetics. I think it’s really powerful to acknowledge that there ARE fat aesthetics, even while, fundamentally, that’s not the measure of worth of a PERSON. And we’re in a society where being attractive as a fat person is considered impossible – I think therefore someone who is aesthetically gorgeous to *us*, or some subset of us, while large – and becomes less so when small – is an interesting exploration of aesthetics.
Claiming fat aesthetics as something other than misogynist fetish marginalia is pretty important work, I think. Because we all are beautiful in some way or another, and it’s not just about what’s inside.
I think this is just more evidence that beauty is entirely subjective. While arguments could be made about “beauty standards,” I think the real-life reality is that there are no standards. I think individual people have individual tastes and preferences, and they can vary wildly…just like what’s “healthy” varies, especially when it comes to weight.
I also agree with Rachel that criticism of women based on their weight is pervasive, and absolutely tied to systemic misogyny. I hope that someday, women can be valued for more than just their bodies…but I dunno that I’m optimistic it will happen in my lifetime.
Maybe part of it is just what you’re used to seeing. Finding that someone has lost 50 lbs since you saw them last can be disconcerting.
When people lose weight quickly, their faces get really haggard looking. A friend of mine joined WW, lost 40 pounds in only 3 months or so, and looked rather gaunt for several months. But her weight somehow rearranged itself and, though she didn’t gain any back, her face filled out again and she looks great now.
I agree that Star Jones looks rather shriveled now, while she was a very attractive fat woman.
I have a standing ban on the Brigid Jones movies (why not just get a fat actress? hmm?) but did see about ten minutes of the second one about three weeks ago. I was… surprised by how Renee Z. looked. The extra fat on her face only accentuated her squinty features, but she did look a lot younger.
I think weight is the least of Star Jones’s aesthetic problems. Why aren’t we talking about those horrible false eyelashes she always wears?
I think there are a couple of different (I use “couple” loosely) issues going on here. I think they exist both in terms of appearance (we think someone looks or doesn’t look good) and health (we think someone looks or doesn’t look healthy, regardless of how attractive they are to us).
Some people are saying – people should be entitled to weigh whatever they want to weigh. I wholeheartedly support and agree with that. I believe that everyone has the right to do with his or her body whatever he or she wants, healthy or not, appealing to me or not.
Second, I think there’s an argument about what the observer finds attractive (or, as above, healthy). I don’t really believe that we’re capable, right now in our stage of cultural development, of looking at someone – or something – without an aesthetic judgement; it seems a natural result of having eyes. And, I think the same rule goes – we’re all entitled to find something attractive, or not attractive, and aren’t beholden to anyone or anything outside of ourselves on that one. If you don’t like making those judgements or thinking about them – there are ways to work on minimizing that. But it’s not easy, and I don’t know if it can be done entirely.
The real issue here, it seems to me, is our expression of our aesthetic judgements. Are we entitled – a word lots of people want to assert, they are entitled to say or think X – to express them at all? Well, sure, in this country anyway.
Is it respectful of others, does it obey the Golden Rule, to express them at all? That’s a lot more tangled, especially, as Rachel points out when it comes to womens’ bodies – and, I would imagine but don’t know, in entirely different ways when it comes to people who are not Caucasian. I want to say – no, we shouldn’t express our opinions about others’ looks, or health – other people should be free to do what they please as should I. I shouldn’t comment on other people – to their faces or behind their backs – and then I should feel free to tell them cheerfully to stuff it if they do the same about me. But – it’s an omnipresent topic of conversation. I find it almost impossible to avoid at least some situation that seems to call for a comment on appearances – even if it seems neutral, like agreeing “oh, she’s pretty, don’t you think?” I’m not sure it’s realistic to strive for not expressing them.
I think the best solution is to be aware of these situations, as a first step. Notice their frequency. Pay attention to their content. And then think about what to say so that you can obey your own particular Golden Rule. In my case, I’m working on saying – “yes, she did lose a lot of weight. I wonder why we all care? I wonder why it’s so important to us how much weight a woman carries, and what she looks like – and so less important what she’s accomplished, what’s important to her. What do you think?” I’m working on saying, “yes, I did lose some weight. I know that you intend that as a compliment. But I believe weight loss is not an accomplishment or something to be lauded for – any more than is weight gain, a change in eyesight, or the healing of a scar. It’s just my body, and how it reacts is up to it. I will tell you how excited I am about X – let’s discuss that, instead.” Do I sound like a liberal snob sometimes? I bet I do. But to me, that’s the best way to handle the world I live in, and still try and be respectful of other people.
I do think whether someone is attractive or not – heck, there are often people on the street that cause my eyes to move, thinking they are attractive! I do think sometimes that someone looks healthy, or not. I don’t think I can stop that. But I don’t say those things. I talk in my head about why I am thinking that and push myself to challenge my thoughts. And when I talk to others, I try to point them towards self-examination and respect, too.
I guess my feelings on this whole thing revolve more around ones thoughts and opinions about what they percieve as beautiful and the media (or strangers on the street for that matter) making a judgement OUT LOUD about whether one is attractive or not.
I personally believe (and yes I get some weird looks for this) that ANY thought is acceptable. As long as it’s JUST a thought. I dont think it’s right to police thoughts. I ALSO don’t think it’s right for a bunch of glamour puss queens to sit around a studio and mock photos of celebrities based on their size or other physical features for that matter. It sends the message that there is a “right” and a “wrong” to weight, size, appearance etc.
I think it’s perfectly acceptable to think that star jones looks scary after her WLS (which I do, in addition to an old co worker who did the same thing and is the same kind of gaunt scary) as long as it doesn’t become a mantra of “all WLS makes people look like skeletons, all fat people should stay fat, everyone should do exactly what the media and society says because it’s right, even if it contradicts itself on an hourly basis”.
Have whatever opinions you want, just you know, don’t be a Jerk face about it:)
I’m of two minds about this. I like that people are realizing that there is not only one body type that looks good on every person, and I think people should be allowed to judge for themselves whether or not someone is attractive to them. On the other hand, far too many people believe (consciously or subconsciously) that a woman’s primary purpose on this planet is to be young and attractive, and dwelling on a person’s physical appearance wastes time better spent on recognizing that person’s talents, thoughts or other contributions to society.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Something won’t appeal to someone. I don’t like the hardbody Mr. Universe look that most think women should swoon over.
I think it’s the way you say how attractive someone is. I have no problem with someone who says matter-of-factly “Fat people don’t attract me.” Just leave it at that. But most don’t. They want to give us a thesis on why they don’t find us attractive. They start to judge our values and morals, assume things that probably aren’t true, and use hurtful words. They compare us to thinner counterparts. All because we’ve got more meat on our bones. Most of us don’t tolerate this mindset when it comes to skin color or ethnicity, so why should it be acceptable when it comes to size?
I think it’s natural for people to be taken aback when you’re used to seeing someone a certain way and suddenly there’s a drastic change. I think that’s what happened with Star Jones. For years, when she covered the OJ trial, we saw her with dark long hair, a full face, and fat. After her WLS, the change was so different. She looked sickly, and not healthy like so many doctors think we’ll look like after the surgery.
I also think it’s interesting we don’t have a huge meltdown with men. Christian Bale dieted down to a near-skeleton for a movie role, but there was no huge outcry. Jared Leto gained a lot of weight to play the guy who shot John Lennon (name escapes me) and the publicity was nothing like Renee Zellwegger’s weight gain for Bridget Jones. But then again, men aren’t repeatedly told they’re here to be handsome and sexually appealing to women.
I think different women look better at different weights. Star Jones looked better bigger. Angelina Jolie looked better when she had a little more meat on her bones, but probably wouldn’t have looked good at Star Jones’s old weight. But, I also agree that it has a lot to do with health. There have been big women I’ve thought were beautiful and big women I’ve seen who have definitely had a problem with their weight negatively effecting their health. The same can be said for skinny women; I just wish society saw it the same way.
I don’t know what happened. It looks like my earlier post was deleted. To the poster (Arlene, I think) whom I offended, again, I apologize, as I do to anyone else whom I have hurt with my words (see above quote). I worded my thoughts poorly and did not mean any offense.
I also apologize if reposting this apology here is against blog policy. Thanks, all.
Well, obviously, we all have a right to our opinions. But we also have to respect that while we may think these people look better heavier, they may not feel good that way.
A lot of people here would probably think I look fine the way I am, or even that i looked alright 6 months ago when I was 50 pounds heavier. But I was not comfortable at that weight, and while I feel a lot better, I am not completely happy and am losing more weight. I respect that someone might like me heavier, but my personal view is that I look better as I lose weight. And on the flip side, my intended goal is about a size 12. To some that may still be massive, they may think I’d look even better if I kept going until I was a 6 or something (if my body would even let me), though I may be completely happy and comfortable at that size.
And yes, different people look good at different sizes. There are people that look horrible when they gain weight, and there are people who look awful when they are thinner. And what you may think when you look at them may be different than what they think about themselves.
I personally think that people should eat well and exercise and let their body does what comes naturally. For some that would be 120 lbs, for some that might be 250. Whatever. Just as long as you take care of yourself, I’m not going to judge.
Are we even entitled to an opinion? The last time I checked, Star Jones’ body belonged to Star Jones. It’s not community property.
Weight of all levels is a personal choice. But I have noticed when older people lose a lot of weight they look older. That is because the fat in the face was maintaining elasticity. I personally think everyone has a weight that is right for them and it is no one else’s business. This last thing was just something I noticed in response to your question.
Some people DO look better when they weigh more, just as some people DO look better when they weigh less. For me it’s about proportion.