Make Me A Match
A very interesting and sad story about eating disorders within the Orthodox Jewish community, from Jezebel. Evidently, in arranging their marriages, one of the criteria for some Jewish men is that their brides be below a size 8.
And in a move reminiscent of that Ben Stiller movie, sometimes they take the mother’s dress size into account too. (The whole “dress size” criteria raises the question: what kind of size 8? I guess you’d find the retailer with the most generous vanity sizing and call yourself that size, whatever it is.)
“Very often, young men looking for brides in the Orthodox community call a girl’s parents and ask for her dress size.” If it’s over a size 8, says the Forward, she may be headed for spinster city.
Some men go so far to ask for the dress size of the mother of the prospective bride. You know, so a future husband can rest assure his wife-to-be will be able to shed the baby weight (and there will be many babies: Orthodox Jews don’t always believe in birth control)…
As many experts note, eating disorders are often about control, and eating disorder specialist Dr. Ira Sacker told the Forward that Orthodox girls and women often want to control their food intake because in such a regimented and ritualized society, what they eat is the only thing they have any power over.
This is a community that I know very little about, so I’m hesitant to give an opinion that may be culturally insensitive. (I didn’t even know whether to put this in the “Race & Ethnicity” category.) So I guess I’ll just report it and let you talk about it. Thanks to Nonk for the link. (And for alerting me to the slight correction regarding the Orthodox dress code a couple of days later.)
Posted by mo pie
Filed under: Eating Disorders, Feminism, Health
I don’t know much about orthodox jews, either, but I found this phenomena to be very interesting. I find it very misleading that the title of the proposed documentary about this is the old cliche “Dying to be Thin,” because obviously, these girls are dying for very different reasons than out of a simple desire for thinness. Titles like this only perpetuate the sense that eating disorders are about weight, when they’re not.
I am jewish not orthodox though.. it is a stringent lifestyle that they choose.. I have never heard about this though and am a bit surprised.. but I guess in this weight obsessed world we live in , even in communities where you would think weight would be the least important factor .. I guess thats a stipulation.. and one I am sorry to say exists for these young women…
I am always very sad to hear about appearance obsession under the guise of religion. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I know of no religion that advocates that you treat fellow followers badly for any reason. I thought that was typically reserved for non-followers (Non-follow can, of course, be someone not of your SECT, not just overall unbrella religion).
see, my first thought was that this wasn’t about weight for the men either-they want a woman who looks easy to control/dominate. I’ve heard this argument used in a broader sense, but I don’t really know the culture either. so I’ll just say it was my knee jerk reaction
That is so offensive, ugh. I wonder if the men also have to meet stringent requirements. Somehow I doubt it.
The men have to meet stringent financial requirements.
I’ve heard of a sort of similar thing happening with arranged marriages in India when the men have been living in the US and they want slim athletic women.
With my coworkers, I find similar attitudes, but varying. Eastern Asian men(Chinese, Vietnamese, etc) prefer their women teeny teeny (slender, petite in height). The Indian, Middle Eastern, and Eastern Europe (Romania, Russia) men like their women with a lil meat on their bones. Granted, this is the opinion of the guys I work with, so is no scientific indicator off these cultures as a whole.
I do have to agree with Melsky that the younger the guys were when they came to the US, they prefer a more “hollywood” version of what is “attractive”.
And of course, none of what I just posted has ANYTHING to do with Orthodox Jewish people! The CEO of my company is Orthodox but all I know is that he can’t eat milk and meat together and is only allowed to have relations with his wife during certain times (which coincide with her being the most fertile). And since birth control is a no-no (other than, perhaps, “rhythm” method), they aer up to their 7th or 8th kid. I would think that running around after all of those rug-rats would keep anyone thin!!
I can’t speak for the Orthodox community at large, but I spent a wonderful time working for a CEO who was an Orthodox rabbi, and his sons who were also Orthodox rabbis – their wives were all chubby and so were their daughters and so were most of them. So at least some of the Orthodox Jewish community doesn’t seem to care about this. They were really wonderful and VERY family-devoted people. I would work there again in a heartbeat.
By the way, Rabbi Schmuley Boteach of “Shalom in the Home” – he has 8 children (and at least a couple of his daughters are chubby) but I can’t remember now if his wife is or not. He certainly is. I can’t find a picture though.
I’m a fat jewish orthodox woman, married and very happy. I live and work in the jewish orthodox community, and have never heard such thing. Lot of my friends are fat or chubby and are happily married. And I wanted to add that arranged wedding are forbidden. We arrange meetings for young people, but no one has ever been forced into marriage. I met my husband through a friend that introduced us because she thought we would get along, so if you think that’s arranged … So bet it :)
I don’t know that it’s far fetched to say that religious orthodoxies carry stringent rituals and “rules” about the body, Mo Pie.
Not an expert in Orthodox Judaism, either. But it does seem, on its face, that many fundamentalist ideologies have very set “rules” about women’s bodies especially. I typically encounter these as cult-of-virginity rules, rather than dietary restrictions.
I have heard of shadchans (matchmakers) telling women they needed to lose weight if they were to find a match. This particular obsession tends to be more common, I suspect, among more modern Orthodox Jews, who often don’t come from observant backgrounds and want to fit in more with the broader culture.
Also, by the way, my understanding of the rhythm method is that it would be very incompatible with Orthodox Jewish sexual practices, which don’t allow sex during menstruation and for several days afterwards. (This is related to the association of menstruation with loss of potential life and ritual impurity due to death, not to hygiene or any “cult of virginity” or other insulting interpretations.) There are also a range of opinions within Orthodoxy on birth control, most of them focused on method rather than concept.
You might want to read the article in The Jewish Daily Forward, it’s about a documentary coming out aimed to end the silence about eating disorders in the community. This is a good thing, because within our culture there is an attitude of disbelief that such things could be going on within the people.
And yes, file this under “Race & Ethnicity” because we are a people, a culture, and a religion colored by our attackers. I have pale skin but I’m not white, being white is predicated on a belief in Jesus Christ and being in the majority.
I am so disgusted with this kind of attitude – a woman cannot be bigger than size 8.
I am so angry than almost tempted to say something rascist, like referring to WWII concentration camps where poor victims were starved to death and YES they were probably size 0 or less. Perfect match for those dudes, right?!
How can Jews even bring up anything that relates to eating/starving after what happened to them?!
/Speechless
(I LOVE HANNAHS COMMENT)
Id seen this, am Jewish, have a few Orthodox relatives and it really, REALLY shocked me.
I had no clue…..and still dont if it is a realistic portrayal.
“WWII concentration camps where poor victims were starved to death and YES they were probably size 0 or less.”
Gee, you think? I’m not sure what that comment did except suggest that maybe you underestimate the whole situation a lil’ bit.
“How can Jews even bring up anything that relates to eating/starving after what happened to them?!”
I’m… not even going to try.
“I have pale skin but I’m not white, being white is predicated on a belief in Jesus Christ”
As an atheist, I guess that I’m not white either? You can argue that you’re a different ethnicity, sure, but saying that everyone who’s white is Christian is just stupid.
Um, anyway. I looked for statistics online to see if there was a high or lower instance of eating disorders in Orthodox Jews, but didn’t really find anything (lots of stuff on sexual abuse, though). The article was sad, and the whole weight specifications thing was horrible, but I don’t know that it’s a whole lot different than what goes on in… mainstream society, I guess you’d call it.
I am an Orthodox Jew, went to Jewish school for elementary and high school, and our teachers all talked to us about eating disorders… I’ve never seen anything like this in my community, and I’ve seen a lot of girls get set up (including myself!) where weight was not at all a factor. And the guys have tons of criteria to meet, as well: if he studies Bible studiously, every day, if he can support a large family, if he is generous, good with children, etc. I once heard of a match where weight was mentioned as an issue on the man’s part, but never on the woman’s. In fact, my boyfriend’s mother actually talked to me about finding places to shop near where they live (we are both 16/18).
My experience with the Orthodox Jewish world is that they have about the same issues that the rest of the world has, eating disorders included, but I don’t think they are that much more or less prevalent. There are good people everywhere, and there are shallow people everywhere, too.
Ms. Ingrid: “I am so angry than almost tempted to say something rascist [sic]…?” You just did. Although I’d call your comment more ignorant than racist. I doubt the Nazis were starving concentration camp inmates because they didn’t live up to German beauty standards.
Hey Ms. Ingrid, go fuck yourself.
“How can Jews even bring up anything that relates to eating/starving after what happened to them?!”
What…the hell…is…WRONG with you? On what planet is saying this kind of thing acceptable?
I just would like to add that contraception IS ALLOWED for orthodox women, in any form (pill, implant, whatever). I also want to say that the jewish orthodox man learns that what is more important is to give pleasure to his wife, it’s even said that “no man should turn down the sexual demand of his wife”.
As for the cycles, we do believe that it’s better to refrain from sex dureing menstruation and days after, I won’t go into the details here for I’m sure you can find a lot on google, but this has nothing to do with a woman being dirty or soiled during menstruation. All I can say is from my experience : refraining from sex during certain period of time has made my couple’s intimacy really strong, and has helped us both to learn how to really communicate without sex, and to open up to one another. I undestand how this could be shocking for some people. There is a variety of things that shock me in other religions, and in general in the world. But there is no way this litte irk of ours is a feminism matter, or a man over woman domination thing.
Thanks for manking corrections !
Shabbat Shalom to my fellow jewish readers !
Hannah
Wow, who knew this topic would be so provocative?!
“On what planet is saying this kind of thing acceptable?”
ever heard about the 1st Amendment and on what planet it exists?
I also disagree with and was rather upset by Ms. Ingrid’s above comment (I’m a Jewish person) – but, on the other hand, one thing that always made me question dieting, when I did, was a presentation by a concentration camp survivor I attended as a kid. She said, “if you have lived through the Holocaust like I did, you will never go on a diet.” That always made me think – why should I be struggling to deprive myself of things, when having sufficient – more than enough – food is a true blessing in this world. Not only because of the Holocaust, but because of the millions of people across the planet who simply don’t have enough to eat, for one reason or another. Wasn’t it being a bit ungrateful for my good fortune to diet? And couldn’t that thought motivate me to maybe help address some of the problem, to think creatively about how to appeal to people about it, et c? So, while I personally did not like the comment itself – I think the ideas it can bring to mind are interesting to think about.
In regard to mccn’s above comment:
I see your point, and while it is interesting to think about, I think the two issues are totally unrelated. It’s like saying African American women shouldn’t go on diets because of all the starving people back in Africa. Ridiculous. And offensive.
Oh, my.
I was the person who refered to the cult of virginity, and I certainly did not apply it to any particular religion. I definitely wasn’t thinking about Jewish customs around menstruation.
I repeat, I did not intend to imply that any religion was a “cult.” I wasn’t even thinking about that.
I was just saying that I have encountered a range of religious orthodoxies that particularly enforce rules about women’s bodies. And that, consequently, it isn’t particularly surprising to me to see Mo Pie’s post about matchmaking and women’s weight.
I really, really wasn’t slamming anyone.
all I can say is that the ignorance of people astounds me
and ms. ingrid, you are an ignorant anti-semite, if I believed in hell I would tell you to go there!