More On The New York Times
Okay, let’s talk about the New York Times piece. I wasn’t interviewed for the article, although I was told there might be a mention, and so I didn’t expect this blog to be featured so prominently, which was a delightful surprise when I saw the masthead in this morning’s paper. On the whole, I thought the article was a pretty fair representation of the world of fat blogging.
The bloggers’ main contention is that being fat is not a result of moral failure or a character flaw, or of gluttony, sloth or a lack of willpower. Diets often boomerang, they say; indeed, numerous long-term studies have found that even though dieters are often able to lose weight in the short term, they almost always regain the lost pounds over the next few years… “I’m not surprised there are so many of these blogs now,” Ms. [Rachel] Richardson said. “Anti-obesity hysteria has reached a boiling point. Blogging is a way for people to fight back.”
Here are some responses from the other featured blogs.
Rachel at The-F-Word:
The term fat acceptance is somewhat of a misnomer and many folks, such as I, describe themselves as body acceptance activists. Most fat acceptance sites, like mine, are staunchly anti-diet and many express grave concerns about the rising popularity of weight loss surgery, but we are not anti-thin nor do we dismiss the body insecurities people of all sizes are made to feel they have.
The New York Times article accurately summed up much of what people in the fat acceptance movement believe and promote. Sadly, the story did leave out one crucial and foundational part of the movement: The crux of fat acceptance is in fighting the stigmatization and social, political and economic marginalization distinctly and acutely experienced by fat people.
Red No. 3, with an interesting roundup of reactions to the article:
One diet blog is dismayed at the article. It takes what I think is meant to be the “moderate” total condemnation of fat acceptance by insisting that self-esteem is something they do believe in. We just shouldn’t have it. Fat acceptance is, instead, an act of “fear, loathing, and sacrifice”…
Did you know fat people like to eat? Some folks on the internet seem to. We seem to be second only to cats in our desire for cheeseburgers. But, I forget that this kind of taunting is accepted as reasonable discourse on the fatosphere, so I guess no reason to bring it up.
I had to roll my eyes at some of the comments on this blog (some of which I deleted). So many of them made comments that can be summed up as “put down the ice cream, you disgusting whore.” Do these people not have reading comprehension skills? I mean, seriously, the other post I wrote yesterday was about something that happened to me while I was at the gym. Do these people not realize that their assumptions about fat people are—well, obviously. I guess I just don’t understand, and will never understand, why people are so offended by fat that they feel the need to come here and declare their hate and vitriol. I guess there’s also racism and homophobia and sexism so… yeah, not a shock, I guess.
Anyway, moving on, The Rotund:
We need a Body Acceptance movement and a Fat Acceptance movement because total strangers feel it is their right to inform us, with as much vitriol as possible, that we’re going to die. We need a Body Acceptance movement and a Fat Acceptance movement because a lot of people, when they hear from these trolls online or in real life (because this sort of thing isn’t limited to online anonymity), believe the hate. We need a Body Acceptance movement and a Fat Acceptance movement because hating ourselves is a form of self-injury that doesn’t do anyone any good.
Kate (who was almost on the Today Show, way to go, Kate):
What we promote here is actually called Health at Every Size, not “health at any size,” if you were thinking of Googling for more information. Here’s my favorite article on it.
Please check out Big Fat Blog, which has been around since 2000 and without which none of the blogs featured in the article would be here.
(I also have to add that Big Fat Deal would not be here without Poundy, so… just gotta share the love in that direction, too.) I love that we’ve made a splash in the world; as a group, as a “fatosphere” (sorry) we’ve achieved some kind of critical mass. I hope the response goes beyond the haters. I hope people will think about how we can teach people—especially girls, who I think are most damaged this kind of thinking—to start off by loving themselves. It is the first step to being a healthy person. I’m not anti-thin, and unlike many other bloggers in this group, I’m not even anti-diet. I am anti-self-loathing, big time. And no commenter calling me a fat whore is going to make me feel one iota less good about myself and about this blog. I’m glad to be here. I hope you are too.
Posted by mo pie
Filed under: Advocacy, Fat Positive, Fatism, Health, Media, Meta
A lot of these places miss the point.
The worst thing about fat discrimination, insults, etc. is that it does nothing to encourage the person, if their weight is causing burdens, to take care of themselves.
It is a measure to keep people in their place. I always thought the point of these blogs was to encourage self-confidence. Because without self-confidence, you’re not going to make the effort to take care of yourself.
Example: Remember when Fat Girl On A Bike went private? I always thought that was the kind of thing we were trying to fight. I’m so glad she decided to go back out in public. People like her are inspiring and who are needed in the blogosphere.
Just a shout-out for this, which made me laugh:
“We seem to be second only to cats in our desire for cheeseburgers”
“I am anti-self-loathing, big time.”
I really hated myself for a long time because I was not stick thin, but then I realized not everyone was happy at any size, especially the teeny tiny thin girls. I’ve been anorexic, name all the ‘diets’ and I’ve been there, but all the smaller I ever got was a small size 10. I can’t believe that, at that weight and size, I was still was not happy with myself, even after losing 100 some lbs. Self-loathing is a huge issue among young girls, no matter what size, from the time their infants they’re told they’re all wrong, whether the issue is about weight or sex or whatever. I love this blog and I hope it is successful in all it does. Never change just because society wants you to!
It doesn’t matter what actual individuals do in the mind of these bigots (and no other words describes fat haters more accurately, to my mind.)
They don’t see “fat people” as individual people. It is simply an undesirable, end-point destination that one arrives at when you have failed in life. Worth is created by staying as far away from this mythical other place as possible.
Individual fat people aren’t actually the ridiculous, stupid stereotype that they NEED in their life in order to motivate their severely hateful thinking, both toward themselves and others. It wouldn’t matter if you posted over and over the exact way you behave as a fat individual, mo pie, the mythos in their head won’t be so easily dispersed. It would require them to look too deeply at their own self and needs and hopes and desires and see how unhappy with themselves they really.
Because I can’t see anyone really being this concerned for others if they weren’t constantly judging and evaluating themselves.
Oh, thank you so much, Mo. I know I don’t write about body stuff as much as I used to, but folks like you and Kate are taking it to the next level, and I’m so glad that people are listening.
I know I don’t write about body stuff as much as I used to,
You can write about whatever you want, and I know I’ll keep reading, Wendy. :)
And Mo, rock on with ignoring the haters.
I would think a NYT reader would also be not only more erudite, but be a better speller - it’s “lose,” not “loose”! Sheesh!
fat peoples’ attempts to disclaim all control and responsibility for being fat are utterly ridiculous and false. they amount to another manifestation of their laziness, which is why they are fat in the first place. fat people are weak individuals with insufficient self control. there are hardly any fat people in africa and other third world countries; while genes may predispose someone to gaining weight more easily, using that as a platform on which to preach fat acceptance amounts to asking the public to condone laziness. it makes me sick.
Lots of folks are never so enraged as they are when someone confronts them and tells them flat out:
” Your opinion does not matter to me.”
This is particularly true, I believe, of those folks who love to get all opinionated on the internet.
Also, Jose is a douche. But that’s just my opinion. And I’m sure it doesn’t matter to him.
Jose is a huge douche who needs remedial English classes.
“I am anti-self-loathing, big time.”
Rock on Mo.
I wouldn’t have started my blog if it weren’t for this blog, and Paul, Poundy, pastaqueen and so many others who got me started thinking about my body as actually being an integral part of my life rather than some separate object than only caused me pain. Those blogs and others helped me get past a life of self-loathing and begin a life of celebration.
I expected some kind of backlash to the Times article but honestly — the same rock throwing and taunting from the playgrounds of my childhood? It just makes me sad.
I feel fortunate knowing that we have each other and I turn to every blog in the Fatosphere for support, encouragement and laughter.
I really love you guys. (sniff)
The problem for a lot of people is that there is far more obesity glorification going on as opposed to BODY acceptance. So far on this website I’ve seen people rail about a clearly overweight woman wanting to lose weight, dismissing her method or reason for doing so because they will lose a fat icon; people becoming quite hostile to those who inform them of medical problems and comfort issues that arise from obesity; and flat out attacking people for commenting that maybe society and an overwhelming majority of the medical profession agree that being overweight is undesirable. This is not, in my opinion, exactly showing tolerance and acceptance of everyone and their opinions (unless of course it’s about proclaiming how great it is to be overweight).
THAT is what so many of these trolls and “haters” observe - fat people who loudly proclaim how totally stoked they are to be fat shouting down anyone who disagrees. It’s the prime example of the “loud fat person” we all know. Usually, the ones shouting loudest are the ones that answer they’d rather be blind than fat, but will never, EVER put down their Hot Pocket and make it happen.
Whatever. I forgot my opinion doesn’t matter.
I love how someone who can’t even be bothered to capitalize is calling fat people lazy.
Seriously, though, I think we should totally study the personalities of people in Africa and Third World countries to find out why THEY don’t have the weak-willed character flaws that make fat people so damn fatty fat.
Oh yeah, that Jose is onto something.
Wendy, just be glad h3 d1nt typ3 l1ke th1s l0lz.
A lot of people on the internet now don’t bother to capitalize or punctuate, or they talk in lolcat language. It gets old after a while.
wendy, you missed my point. i cited africa and third world counties to show that the argument that genetics inhibit fat people from being fit is complete bs.
the bottom line is, for fat people, it comes down to a simple cost-benefit analysis. losing weight hurts, especially when you are in really bad shape. eating is painless. it takes a stronger will to overcome the cost associated with comfortably eating vs. working out.
ordinarily, i do not care how other people live. but this issue particularly infuriates me because i have to subsidize fat peoples’ health care costs when they need their high blood pressure medication, heart surgery, etc. if risk pools were segregated so that i was in an insurance pool composed entirely of other fit individuals, i would still be grossed out by fat people, but i wouldn’t be so disguisted by “fat pride.” the same applies to smokers.
I’m not stoked about being fat, I’m just tired of people telling me that I’m weak-willed and lack self-discipline.
I think what Jose is trying to say is that people in Africa are thin because they don’t eat twice their body weight in food everyday, not because they are genetically blessed.
Shocking concept, I know. Someone toss Jose a Nobel.
I just have no idea what fatfighter is talking about. I read this blog regularly and I never see comments like the ones ff is mentioning. No one gets shouted down and certainly no one is told that they should not be fit and active because we don’t want to lose a fat icon. (I really wonder who that is? I mean is it me? Am I a fat icon and I just didn’t know it? I am so excited!) And I certainly never see any comments that proclaim pro-obesity. How very strange.
Oh wait I get it — fat fighter! The name is a character. This must be an improvisational avant garde theatrical exercise! Wow you did an amazing job with that. I was almost convinced that you were a real person who is so blinded by fear and hatred of a specific body type that you are unable to relate to said body type in a polite and non-hostile manner.
It’s the prime example of the “loud fat-hating person” we all know.
Thank you for being such a wonderful example. I am sure we all learned a lot from that. Will you be performing your fat hate rant in person in an off off Broadway theater? No, I suppose you prefer leaving anonymous posts on blogs.
Fatfighter, you’re not getting it. Nobody on this blog, or any of those mentioned in the article, indulges in what you’ve so charmingly called “obesity glorification.” What we’re saying is that everyone’s body is her or his own affair, in whatever size it is. We’re not against taking care of our bodies — as Mo has pointed out, many posts on these blogs are about exercise, eating well, and other forms of self-loving.
But you, and others like you, need to understand that I and many, many of my fat sisters (because, yes, there are lots of chicks in the Fatosphere) can be in excellent health — at 45, I have nothing more seriously wrong with me than asthma.
You also need to understand that even though I eat well (nary a Hot Pocket in sight) and exercise regularly (let me know if you’d like to join me on my next 20 mile bike ride), I am never going to be a thin person. That’s OK with me. And that’s my right.
*yawn*
Oh look! Your rancid sarcasm is all in love, I’m sure. You’re using your viper wit to show me how accepted I am! I get it! I particularly like the tired old “lol you leave anon comments on blogs” remark. Way to not assume anything! I know you aren’t because you hate it when people assume things about fat people - you would never stoop to using sniping assumptions to someone you don’t know.
I am so over you people.
“Fat acceptance” can go one of two ways. In the sense that I understand you don’t care about your physical wellbeing, that’s fine. I accept that you are willing to be unhealthy. But as far as it being encouraged, I must dissent. The average weight of an American woman has steadily increased to the point where the average American woman weighs over 145lbs. As any doctor will tell you, carrying a lot of extra weight is unhealthy. It’s your choice to smoke, to eat trans fats, to curse, to listen to music at obscene volume, to do anything that has been proven to be unhealthy. But don’t expect sympathy or empathy or support. You’ll notice there aren’t many “pro-smoking” groups, notwithstanding the similarities. I think “fat acceptance” is a promotion of an unhealthy behavioral trait that should not be imbued into our children. It’s okay to be slightly overweight, but to promote a lack of exercise or gluttony (”Order the cheesecake!!”) is silly, harmful, and counterproductive.
I think the sentiment that powers this “fat fad” is the same that makes young girls wear “I’m a bitch and I’m proud!” paraphernalia.
“I am so over you people.”
And yet, you’re still here, commenting.
Um, Fatfighter. It’s “rapier wit.” If you’re going to use a cliche, please use the correct one.
Or, alternately, go fuck yourself. Elsewhere.
Actually, that was intended to be my last comment.
Instead, this is.
Good-bye, all. Enjoy being snarky to people whose opinions differ than yours. Way to advance acceptance.
I agree that Jose is a huge douche.
By the way, does anyone know if there are any foods I can eat that will make me sweat less?
fatfighter–Are you saying your Hot Pockets comment was not a sniping assumption?
And Jose’s point that there are no fat people outside the industrialized world is 1) false 2) counterproductive. If the whole point is that fat is OMG UNHEALTHY, then why do we fatties have a much greater life expectancy than people in the places he mentions? So the point is that people who experience food scarcity and/or diseases causing wasting are thin? Fantastic!
And if you’re going to flounce around with “Whatever I forgot my opinion doesn’t matter” and “I am so over these people” it is much more effective if you actually LEAVE.
This thread is psychologically revealing. Instead of responding to substantive issues, such as those Jose raised, people are resorting to petty name calling and complaining about punctuation. In a nutshell, this thread explains why so many of you are fat. Instead of facing the difficult issues, you are dodging them, just like you dodge exercise and eating well. The concept of personal responsibility is lost to most people on this board.
Pray tell, Gilbert, what substantive issues did Jose raise? He makes the claim that people in third world countries and Africa are more fit than us. His basis? We are fat, they are not. Curious. I’m fairly happy with my 80-year life expectancy, as opposed to approximately 39-years that I might expect in Ghana. Again–people experiencing food scarcity will be thin. That does not mean that they are fit.
Number two, you and Jose that we all sit around eating rather than facing facts and getting on a treadmill. I happen to run 20+ miles per week, bike up to 100 and lift weights 2-3 hours per week. Still fat! And I’ve never touched a Hot Pocket in my life (I’ve been a vegetarian for over 15 years).
Now–who is resorting to name calling? Jose has called us weak-willed, fatfighter claims we are all clinging to our Hot Pockets for dear life, and you claim I dodge exercise and eating well. How the hell do YOU know? Here is what you are dodging. You don’t know us, our health status, or our lifestyle choices and you choose to judge us for our bodies based on your own prejudices.
Gilbert, if you’ll scroll up a bit and read my first comment, you’ll see that I, and many of the people on this blog, eat well and exercise.
Not only that, we’ve got IQ’s in the three digits, and are able to comprehend sentences with more than one clause in them.
What we don’t do is allow mindless (unpunctuated, uncapitalized) brain vomit from trolls to go unchallenged. And believe me, there’s nothing petty about my consigning you to the dung-heap of douchehound status, with your fellows. I do it with a great deal of relish (pickalilly, please).
I agree with Jose. If genetics were the explanation, there wouldn’t be far more obese people in America than other countries. Do Americans have a particular gene that makes them fat? I don’t think so. The environment is the main cause; abundant cheap food and a culture of consumption.
Taunting and name-calling doesn’t help anyone, it only makes things worse. But I don’t find it particularly admirable to be “proud” of being fat, either. Lose weight and get fit, and then be proud. You’ll feel better and look better, and the world will treat you better because of it. It’s not fair, but there it is.
Gilbert, you’ve willfully neglected to notice that I’m trying to point out the problems in Jose’s argument–which is that it makes no sense to say that fat is a personality flaw at the same time you’re saying that people in less industrialized countries are fat. He’s also under the mistaken impression that the whole fat acceptance movement is predicated on the fat-is-genetic theory, which it is not.
Read these comments again, Gilbert. You’ll see that there are people here who eat right and exercise and who believe that the whole country could stand to be eating better, because bad nutrition DOES cause health problems, even in people who aren’t fat. We’re just tired of fat being scapegoated for a complicated array of problems that have a number of causes.
Oops, I meant: “it makes no sense to say that fat is a personality flaw at the same time you’re saying that people in less industrialized countries are NOT fat.” Carry on.
Why are we STILL using the word “overweight”? This word should only be applied to one’s own size IF a person believes that he/she weighs more than is desireable. The response that was popular during the early days of the late, great BBW Magazine was “over WHOSE weight?” It isn’t up to anyone else to determine to what degree I am fat; that’s my decision, as is the choice to hold or fold.
The responses generated by the NYT piece are astonishing; truly, we are becoming a land of illiterate yahoos, as well as nasty bigots! Try saying that stuff about “lazy fat people” but substiting the word “black” or “Native American” or “Baptist” for fat and see what happens…
If Jose’s still hanging around, I’d like to point out that it’s not true that “there are hardly any fat people in africa and other third world countries” (since now Africa is a country apparently). Most of Africa is not full of starving refugees whatever it might seem like in the media and I’m sick of people using that ridiculous statement to defend their self-righteous judgement of other people. Africans come in just as wide a range of sizes as Westerners and there are plenty of fat people.
I thought this post was about an article about a good and balanced article (for once) on the fatosphere, not tedious haters.
Congratulations on getting a mention Mo.
A serious question to posters who are disturbed by this blog and its readers:
Define “health.”
Modern lexicographers have three definitions of the word that are related to two ideas - being free of physical disease/thriving or a state of being (the health of a nation).
I’m fat. I have low blood pressure, low cholesterol and do not suffer from any chronic conditions or diseases. I take no prescription medications. I run, lift weights and enjoy a healthful diet.
What makes me unhealthy?
As expected, what was once a good site becomes plagued by trolls.
Just bad luck, DivaJean–I haven’t had access to a computer today, as it is the first day of the semester and I spent the morning teaching. Normally I would be deleting obvious trolling comments.
Good point DivaJean and wriggles. The article was a big victory. As was the line in this post about cheeseburgers. Maybe we could make troll cheeseburgers!
My remark regarding Jose was not aimed at the points he was trying to make, although I do take exception to them. No, my issue is with someone who expects his points to be accepted when he calls his readers false, ridiculous, lazy, and weak, and says their logic sickens him.
Yeah, he’s a real silver-tongued devil.
I am a size 4, so you would not think I am a candidate for reading and enjoying and learning from the fatosphere. But let me tell you something… I see this as body acceptance at any size as well as health at any size. The American culture is heavily bullshitty. And the true message of our culture, imho, is that we are all, at everysize, not good enough, accomplished enough, young enough, or pretty enough. Jesus, why is it that women (and now many men) feel compelled to spend tens of thousands of dollars on plastic boobs, chin implants, lip fillers, botox, lipo, vaginal rejuvantion, and even toe surgery to fit better into 8 million dollar Manolo Blaniks?!? I am considered, by my outside appearance, to be fit etc etc, but inside I struggle and have struggled my entire life with the very same issues discussed on these blogs. And for the first time, I feel understood and also get the chance to further understand. And I wish to thank all of you for giving me this gift of empathy and empowerment. -Debbie B
I’m going to sidestep most of the debate above, but I do wish to say that this blog has also touched on issues of more general size acceptance such as height issues and the issues that the overly thin face, particularly discriminatory medical professionals.
I also want to say, on a more personal level, that I would not have gotten to a weight that was healthy given my height and genes if it weren’t for size acceptance. When I was heavilly engaged in self-hate and fully believing the anti-fat messages the only thing I could do to cope was binge eat. After I put a lot of effort into accepting myself as I am, I found it easier to work on coping with my emotions in a healthier way, and finding other coping strategies meant a dramatic drop in binge eating, and soon I found it much easier to maintain a healthy weight. HATE HELPS NO ONE! Love and acceptance helps many people, whether it helps you to change your size or live healthier at your current size, I don’t care. Love yourself and take care of you’re body and you’re lightyears ahead of anyone of any size who focuses on the hatred.
Look, Jose and Fatfighter, as mouse said, you guys are just wrong about this “people aren’t fat in the third world” argument. In fact, the reason the rate of overweight and obese (understanding these are loaded words) people in Africa and other Third World countries is lower than in the US and Europe is because those countries are not as wealthy. However, as those countries get more wealthy, the same problems with weight arise. See, for example, the links below or simply google “third world growing obesity” :
http://www.unc.edu/news/archives/sep01/brantley100101.htm
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/21/news/letter.php
http://www.diabetesvoice.org/issues/2007-05/Young_people_with_diabetes_and_obesity_in_Asia_a_growing_epidemic.pdf
I understand that it is fun to hurl insults at people that you have decided are lazy or have no willpower. This is not going to help anyone’s health. Obviously something more than just “fat people are just a bunch of lazy a-holes” is going on when more than two thirds of the population of this country are considered overweight or obese. When people turn this into a moral issue, it doesn’t help anyone.
*yawn*
Right back atcha, trolls.
What confuses me is the idea of this website. Mo called it a gateway to fat acceptance yet one of the contributers had gastric bypass and mo has a blog and has had for a few years dedicated to her attempts to lose weight?
I think body acceptance is great, but if you accept your body, doesn’t that mean you are not trying to change it? And if fat is not unhealthy, why the surgery and the diet struggles?
Perhaps a clearer message would help the haters- and help us that come here and don’t comment because we are not sure what will be considered appropriate or not.
I mostly love the posts and agree with a fair amount of them- but I have read some of fatfighters comments and thought she(he?) had some good points as well. And a fair amount of people seem to be really inspired by a few famous bloggers who wrote books that chronicle their weight loss- so I guess I am confused by the gateway to FA remarks.
Seriously not a troll or trying to be rude or insensitive- just really curious and confused.
I don’t know that responding to trolls is productive, but I don’t know that deleting their comments is either. Like it or not, there IS a battle being waged…the battle for acceptance of all people, regardless of their shape or size or color or gender. It’s pretty easy, when you are a frequent reader/writer/commenter in this community, to think that you’re in a happy place where everyone is going to agree with you.
In reality, they’re not.
This is a public forum….our equivalent of a meeting of the Suffragettes or the NAACP. If you compare the FA movement to, say, the civil rights movement, or the women’s rights movement - the trolls are the ones vetoing the ERA and telling women that their place is in the kitchen, bitch, and get me a beer while you’re up. The trolls are the ones in white robes burning crosses. The trolls are the ones who think we should all sit at the back of the fucking bus.
They are the ones, in other words, who can’t stand the idea that MAYBE they don’t have power and MAYBE they have little to feel superior about. They are also the ones who are used to people not fighting back.
I think that’s why we’re all really here.
To fight back.
I rarely delete comments, but I will delete ones that seem obviously inflammatory and trollish, as opposed to people who are merely disagreeing.
Frank Reich: I’m not disputing that “The average weight of an American woman has steadily increased to the point where the average American woman weighs over 145lbs.” but I’d like to add that she has also become taller. You’re using only one part of the change in the “Average American Woman” to suggest that 145 lbs is fat, which isn’t the case if that woman is, 5′6″ or taller — which quite common now compared to even 20 years ago. In fact, the BMI chart I just consulted indicates that a 5″6″ person weighing 148 is within a healthy BMI range. Even if you choose to assume that the high end of the “normal” BMI range is for men, 145 is still not considered fat, or even unhealthy by the current healthcare establishment.
I’m not saying that Americans haven’t become fatter, or even that being fat doesn’t present some health concerns, just that you’ve decided on a weight parameter that reflects a personal judgement rather than a fact.
And, as others have pointed out, there are plenty of people who are fat as well as active and healthy — just as there are plenty of thin people who are sedentary and unhealthy. Focusing only on weight as the *only* indicator of health doesn’t help anyone.
Cathy,
My understanding of this blog is that it’s a community for people in all phases of body acceptance. People who avail themselves of weight loss surgery are on that spectrum.
Frank Reich also bemoaned “cursing.” I’m pretty sure he’s something like an 80-year-old MD who is sad that a lot of the ladies he has to look at in the course of a workday aren’t skinny, demure, and pure of thought and tongue as they are in his dreams. They just don’t make women like they used to–complacent, modest, and all sexually attractive to Frank. Because that is the function of women–to be pleasing to Frank’s eye. Poor sad Frank.
Dude, trolls, nobody here is saying that you shouldn’t be healthy. In fact pretty much everyone here is in favor of healthy eating and exercise as far as I know. These things don’t necessarily make fat people thin, though.
“The average weight of an American woman has steadily increased to the point where the average American woman weighs over 145lbs”
ZOMG1!1
:rolleyes:
“My understanding of this blog is that it’s a community for people in all phases of body acceptance.”
Key Words: BODY. ACCEPTANCE.
Perhaps the trolls having trouble with more subtle trains of thought can wrap their minds around that.
And perhaps Frank Reich could look into changing his first name to Third.
Oh god. Not Godwin’s Law.
Congratulations on the mention, y’all.
I quit writing FBG because of people like Jose on here, I’m glad other people are still keeping up the body acceptance movement.
Frank Reich gave his opinion in a respectful way. To say he should change his name to Third Reich because he values old-fashioned femininity reflects the attitude of many people here. Another person likened people who object to obesity to the Ku Klux Klan. These comments are not respectful and rational.
You know what’s not respectful or rational? Trolls coming on here wasting space, telling us we’re just not good enough, all we do is sit around and eat (which clearly isn’t true), and that we’re unhealthy.
I am good enough, I exercise for 30 minutes daily, I eat right, and my health issues (depression and PCOS-both medcines used to treat them a contributor to my rotundness) are my problem, nobody else’s. So yes, we liken people to hateful, shameful things because they come on here saying hateful, shameful things. Should we stoop to their level? Hell no, but how else can we defend ourselves? Just stay neutral, ignore the comments? Apparently you’re not ignoring them, Indoor Cat, because you’ve commented them.
Respect has to be earned, in my book, and rationalization is something that few people have in this world anymore.
I’m glad MizShrew made the point about the height increase, because I was going to. But even so… health is not just about some arbitrarily chosen number. I’m shorter than 5′6 and I will probably never weigh as little as 145, but I’m fit. I bike to work (because I enjoy it). I can lift heavy stuff.
I no longer think about whether I’m fat (and in the views of some people on here, I’m not.) I do not think of my body as a problem, and it’s certainly not anyone else’s problem.
But what any of our body sizes, or our views about them, have to do with femininity… that’s a mystery to me.
@Jose:
People come in all sizes, regardless of what continent they are living on. Check out this photo of Ghanaian women.
http://www.thp.org/ghana/2006/wep600.jpg
I actually misspoke. The average American woman weighs over 160lbs (at 5′4″) the average French woman weighs 137 (at 5′3 1/2″).
What stuns me is that I gave a pretty rational — even if you disagree with it — opinion and was personally attacked with ad hominem jabs about how I am a creepy old doctor. No, I’m not a doctor. And I’m 30.
I understand that some people, and some of you, are overweight notwithstanding a healthy lifestyle. But I would hope you also understand that those people are not the norm, and are in fact outliers. My point is that obesity — measured in body fat percentage so that we can do apples to apples — is a growing epidemic that has become a major health problem. Being obese is nothing to “celebrate.” The vast majority of people who are obese got there not from pills and side effects but from poor lifestyle choices and overindulgence. This isn’t like racial epithets; most people who are extremely overweight have made CHOICES and I am free to characterize those choices just as you characterize religious extremists or intolerants.
For everyone with hypothyrodism or kidney nephrosis or anything else that makes you gain weight, I celebrate your resolve and I sympathize. For everyone who is overweight but lives a healthy lifestle, I don’t judge you. But for those who are inactive and overindulgent and giving yourself diabetes while draining health care funds and teaching your children (explicitly or by example) those ways, yes, I do judge your behavior.
I actually misspoke. The average American woman weighs over 160lbs (at 5′4″) the average French woman weighs 137 (at 5′3 1/2″).
What stuns me is that I gave a pretty rational — even if you disagree with it — opinion and was personally attacked with ad hominem jabs about how I am a creepy old doctor. No, I’m not a doctor. And I’m 30.
I understand that some people, and some of you, are overweight notwithstanding a healthy lifestyle. But I would hope you also understand that those people are not the norm, and are in fact outliers. My point is that obesity — measured in body fat percentage so that we can do apples to apples — is a growing epidemic that has become a major health problem. Being obese is nothing to “celebrate.” The vast majority of people who are obese got there not from pills and side effects but from poor lifestyle choices and overindulgence. This isn’t like racial epithets; most people who are extremely overweight have made CHOICES and I am free to characterize those choices just as you characterize religious extremists or intolerants.
For everyone with hypothyrodism or kidney nephrosis or anything else that makes you gain weight, I celebrate your resolve and I sympathize. For everyone who is overweight but lives a healthy lifestle, I don’t judge you. But for those who are inactive and overindulgent and giving yourself diabetes while draining health care funds and teaching your children (explicitly or by example) those ways, yes, I do judge your behavior.
Last, the existence of an overweight woman from Ghana does not an argument make.
“But I would hope you also understand that those people are not the norm, and are in fact outliers.”
They are outliers period, amongst people of all weights. I always understood that if you wanted to understand a state of being, you had to find it’s opposite and make a list of all you knew about both states, crossing off all duplications.
Fact not judgement is science.
Frank: First of all, thanks for clarifying/rechecking your facts. I guess the problem many people here have with your judgment of their “behavior” is that you have no way of telling, just by looking at a fat person, whether they are fat by way of a health condition, genetics, or as you put it, “overindulgence.” Nor is it really for anyone to judge what exactly is overindulgent for another person. When you see a fat person “ordering the cheesecake,” for all you know that’s the only dessert they’ve ordered in six months. Just because you see one glimpse of a person does not mean that this is what they do all day, every day. If you run into me a little too drunk in a bar on one occasion, and you never have seen me before, do you assume I’m an alcoholic?
And if you’ve read through the comments here, you’ll see that many people who make such judgments about fat people come here specifically to make rude or cruel remarks on a fat acceptance blog — they’re not content to keep their judgment to themselves; they feel it is their right, for whatever reason, to come over here and taunt people. So perhaps you’ll understand that in context, when you come over and post a remark (with incorrect facts) with judgments about out behavior without seeing or knowing us, that many people will lash out at that. I’m not saying that the reduction of the argument to Godwin’s Law-style Hitler comparisons is appropriate or productive, it isn’t. Just that you need to understand that many of the people here are here to explore the “fat acceptance” concept and discussion of related topics, not to have more judgments thrown at them that they encounter every day out in the real world.
And while I can’t speak for others, I spent most of my childhood and adulthood to date in various stages of being overweight or obese, and I’ve heard all the judgments. They did not help me to lose weight. Quite the contrary, they damaged my self-esteem and made developing healthy behaviors more difficult. I’m what people might term “chubby” right now, and I’m here to tell you that I don’t need your judgments and that in fact they do more harm than good. It’s only by rejecting other people’s assumptions about my body and my behavior that I was able to make any changes toward making me both healthier and happier with myself. Further, I don’t make the false assumption that what worked for me would work for anyone else.
Oh and I also don’t make the assumption that anyone needs to make a change at all. If someone is happy and in good health, anything else is none of anyone else’s damn business.
This may sound callous, but people who “judge” the obese are under no duty to “make them feel better.”. If you were to criticize a drug user or racist or religious extremist (more severe choices, but nevertheless choices) you would not be doing so with the intent to heal them. While I understand that relatives and friends should use kid gloves for your benefit, I am free to say “I do not agree with your lifestyle choices.”
Granted, seeing an obese woman order a large cheesecake does not guarantee that overindulgence is the source of her obesity. But it is certainly persuasive evidence. Of course one fact doesn’t establish a pattern, and that’s not what I’m saying.
I’ll rephrase it again: almost half of America is obese. That’s staggering. And most of those people are not “healthy” and making healthy choices.
Earlier, Indoor Cat posted the question: “Do Americans have a particular gene that makes them fat?” I’m wondering if maybe we do. Think about it. What is written on the Statue of Liberty? “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. …” As far as I can see, a common attribute of those described in the poem and many of our immigrants was having the ability to survive famine and disease. Millennia of famine and disease suffered by the poor in Europe, Africa and Asia has naturally selected for those who had the ability to store fat when food was plentiful, those who might have the fat gene. A larger proportion of those immigrating to America were from the population that was more likely to have the fat gene (the poor). Ergo, the current population in America has a higher proportion of people carrying the fat gene.
Chris,
Interesting thought, but no, I don’t believe there is scientific support for that. Lipid, the “fat gene,” is not the answer. While it’s nice to be able to have some escapism, the truth is that the real answer is all around us: growing portion sizes, video games, sedentary lifestyles, computers, trans fat substitution, poor eating habits, high fructose corn syrup subsidies, etc.
Frank, there is no gene called “lipid.” I think you are thinking of leptin, which is the product of the obese gene. At any rate, there are dozens of genes involved in the leptin pathway, and many hundreds more in the body which play a role in regulation of food intake and energy balance, so there’s no such thing as “THE fat gene.”
While I agree that the rise in obesity in the U.S. in recent years is very likely a result of environmental changes rather than genetic ones, that doesn’t mean that the role of genetics in body weight should be discounted. Given that a majority of adults in our society are now overweight or obese, you might say that those of us who are not overweight ought to give credit to our “thin” genes.
Another thing that is important to understand about the genetic contribution to obesity is that it is about more than just metabolic rate. Genetics also regulates our energy levels, our ability to build muscle, how quickly we feel full after eating, the foods we choose to eat, and even what we call “will power” is probably largely governed by genetics.
At any rate, while I do share your concerns about rising rates of obesity, I don’t think that belittling fat people for their “bad choices” does anything to solve the problem.
La Wade,
It was a mistype. I meant lipin.
I don’t have to solve any problems; I’m not anyone’s therapist. I’m offering my opinion. I think obesity is a drain on society, as is smoking, drug use, alcohol, etc. You can criticize my factual foundation, but I’m not wrong solely because I’m not wearing kid gloves.
Hi Frank,
How do you propose to change people’s behavior?
Do you lobby the government to change the subsidies? Have you been following the 2007 Farm Bill proposals?
Michelle,
I’m not sure. A lot of it is education, I think. My mother is overweight and she has a hard time understanding WHY the food she eats is unhealthy. People don’t understand glycemic indices, what “whole grain” really means, refined sugars, trans fats, serving sizes, etc. One of the main problems is that “fat food” is cheap and easy. It’s hard to get a fast food salad or naked chicken breast. And some companies are to blame; you get a “low carb!” steak from Applebees marketed as healthy notwithstanding its 50g of fat.
Also, palates are developed through how we grow up. Parents who eat cheeseburgers have kids who eat cheeseburgers. Americans have developed a taste for salt, but there is evidence that if we stop eating it we stop craving it. We’re making some strides, in terms of breaking down portion sizes and educating the public. And governmental paternalism — especially in progressive states like NY and California — has forced eateries to be more forthcoming.
The FDA needs to redo its label requirements and put a halt to true-but-misleading labels and flatly misleading portion sizes.
Parents need to get their kids to develop tastes for proteins and whole grains and vegetable. We need to start at the bottom of the pyramid.
There’s a lot that needs to be done. And to be honest, I think the notion that [generally speaking] “obesity is okay” is counterproductive and incredibly dangerous. I would guess that many of the people who feel “hopeless” and like they’re just “big boned” or “genetically fat” are just not pushing the right buttons. I know quite a few people who started out feeling hopeless and ended up putting their feet to pavement and their eyes to books and lost — and kept off — 100+ lbs. That’s why I think “fat pride” and celebration of obesity is something that kills the forward progress that we’ve made as a society in terms of health-education.
Frank: I agree that you are under no obligation to make me, or anyone, feel good, and you certainly have every right to form an opinion about other people’s lifestyle choices if you wish. But being judgmental toward obese people not only does not solve the problem (which of course you are not required to solve) but it actually contributes to it, by contributing to the “hopelessness” you mention above. So while every individual is responsible for making their own choices — other people’s opinions of them notwithstaning — if you are genuinely concerned about solutions to obesity in this country, please understand that condescension is also counterproductive.
With that said, I agree with you that food marketing, food labeling, habits learned from parents, restaurant portion sizes, corn syrup subsidies, etc., are all contributors to the rise in obesity and should be looked at. The farm subsidy issue in particular is an incredibly complicated one, as is the issue of how to fund healthier school lunches, when many schools are struggling to afford to offer even the junk that many of them have now.
Frank Reich: People are fat. Get over it.
I’m glad you enjoy being an asshole, but I fail to see how it helps anybody here. You are just pissing people off even more, while coming off as a major jerk who doesn’t know what he is talking about.
What, do you think nobody here has heard the arguments you have spewed out over and over again? Newsflash - many of your “concerns” have been debunked and we aren’t buying it anymore. Using these “concerns” to outright practice prejudice against others is downright inhumane.
I’m sure people in the eugenics movement were just “concerned” too.
It’s amazing that you think coming to a sorta fat acceptance blog and telling us how we’re affecting you personally in the most dehumanizing way is going to win you friends. And then you act shocked that we’re all attacking you. Gee, wonder why?
People like you just make me stubborn as hell. I’ll never diet again. I will never force myself into a lifestyle that brings me personal hell again. And I do it to PISS PEOPLE LIKE YOU OFF.
And don’t worry about your precious pocketbook. I don’t have health insurance - and at 315 pounds, I’m pretty damn healthy. Amazingly, you don’t mind shelling out cash for other sick people though. Thin people get diabetes. Thin people have heart attacks. Thin people suffer from back and joint pain. But I don’t hear you bitching about them, which pretty much confirms my suspicions about you. Maybe if the medical community stopped blaming every single health problem on people being fat, you wouldn’t be bitching.
But it makes me wonder how many more men and women will suffer from eating disorders because of asshole like you. How many more young women will die from anorexia because of assholes like you? How many more women will live in misery and hate because of assholes like you?
Well, guess what - not me. After years of being physically and mentally abused for being obese (probably by “concerned” people), I’m over it. I am going to live the REST of my days in complete happiness, despite being SO FAT. And seeing that the majority of my family members have lived into their 80s, despite their weight, I have a long time ahead of me. My obesity might cut off, what, 2 to 5 years? Big whoop.
Hi Frank,
Thanks for replying. I agree with most of what you said, up until the end.
We see the FA movement through very different lenses. I understand that you see it as an impediment to progress in terms of health education. I feel that self-acceptance, a key tenet of FA, is the first step on a path to health - mental and physical.
Or at least it has been for me.
Just out of curiosity - of the people you know who’ve lost 100+ lbs and kept it off, how many of them did it by excoriating themselves on a daily basis for being fat? Have you talked to them about their weight-loss experience outside of exercise and food regimens? How they felt about themselves before, during and after?
I know my experience isn’t universal, so I’m only speaking for myself when I say that the FA movement, to me, isn’t just saying “obesity is okay”, but “PEOPLE are okay”. Do you weigh 400 lbs? Have bad skin? Thinning hair? Okay. You’re still human, and still have value in that humanity.
Nobody’s perfect, after all.
Dude, way to go Sarah and Michellelicious!
Also, Frank…have those people managed to keep that 100+ lbs off for more than 5 years? If not, it doesn’t count. And was that a combined 100+ lbs? Knowing 20+ people that all lost 5 lbs. doesn’t count. Did any of them have weight loss surgery? Go on a fast? Yeah, doesn’t count. But I suspect that’s not what you meant.
Sarah has you pegged man. I really cannot stand people trying to rescue me from myself. Or any of us from ourselves. Self-acceptance is okay Frank!
And if any of our self-acceptance bothers you, it’s probably because it threatens YOU feeling okay about YOURSELF. As long as you have someone to be “concerned” about, i.e. pick on, you’ll feel just dim dandy. But let a fat person feel okay being in their own skin? Yeah, that threatens the very balance of the world. WHATEVER. Go teach a health class and stay off FA blogs.
Frank doesn’t know “lots of people” who have kept 100 lbs. off for 5 years or more (particularly people who started out fat, not people who gained 100 lbs. for some reason and then returned to their natural thin setpoint). For god’s sake.
Frank, your moralistic view of obesity is really telling. You say most fat people make terrible “lifestyle” choices when really you have no idea whether or not that is the case (hey, what is “the large cheesecake” and where can I get it? Most of the cheesecake I buy is so damn tiny! Before you blow a gasket feeling self-righteous at me about that statement, I am kidding.) The fact is, you’re looking at what someone orders or what’s in someone’s grocery cart and making an assumption about their overall lifestyle that fits the narrative that you are already inclined to believe. (All the while ignoring the thinner folks who are making the same types of potentially unhealthy choices.) I’m glad you can feel better about yourself by assuming that others are lazy slobs but your statements are by no means as obviously true as you think. And I still think your “vices” and “cursing” comments are ridiculous. And people wonder why fat is considered a social and feminist issue.
Sarah, way to show Frank! Going through life unhealthy and overweight really “sticks it to” fitness buffs. It is definitely worth it too. While you get out of breath and sweaty from walking up stairs and force yourself into a perpetually slow, inactive, tired existence, you are really going to “PISS PEOPLE LIKE [FRANK] OFF.” I mean, getting pissed at fat people is what people like Frank and I do while we are out jogging, biking, hiking, and otherwise being active enjoying life.
Sarah, woman of genius.
Jon, I think you’ve missed Sarah’s point, which is that it’s entirely possible to be an active fitness buff, and to be in good to excellent cardiovascular condition, and still be fat. Some people can be very active and still not lose their fat unless they reduce their caloric intake to levels that leave them too tired to support their active lifestyles. Those folks are in a catch-22, and I think it’s probably healthier to be active and fat than sluggish and thin.
Ginger, nobody who is 315 pounds is in “excellent cardiovascular health” or “very active.” Most likely, people who are obese, yet consider themselves active, probably have a skewed idea of what “active” means and do not know what they are missing/unable to do. Go run some local races, hike in the backcountry/local state park, or go ride your bike. I live in the DC Metro area (pop ~5 Million) do all of that and obese people are few and far between. That is not a coincidence.
As a side note, it is ridiculous to equate “life expectancy” with health, as many people here do. Medical technology can keep someone alive for years with medications and bypasses, but that does not equate to being healthy.
I disagree with the fundamental message of this blog: fat acceptance/fat celebration. Obesity is not a positive thing. So you don’t take my argument to the extreme and spit it back at me, I’m not advocating anorexia. There is a happy medium, called fit/healthy/normal body weight, between the two. I will never celebrate fatness, just like I will never accept smoking, alcoholism/drug addiction, suicide, or any other self-destructive acts or states.
Many people on this blog are in denial and have convinced themselves that they are healthy. It’s amazing how calling them fat triggers some defensive response in them. The sad part is that so many of them have equated being fat with something unchangeable, something about their body that they need to “accept.” That’s evidence of hopelessness and misguidedness. That is a shame. I feel sorry for them.
Jon, please don’t feel sorry for us fatties. And telling big people to go ride a bike or take a hike is yet another tiresome, stereotypical comment from those who automatically assume fat people get no exercise and sit around all day eating junk food.
If you want to feel sorry for someone, feel sorry for yourself and others like you who refuse to see overweight and obese people as PEOPLE.
lol@censorship
Fatfighter, you know most of your comments have gone through uncensored, despite the infighting it causes, because I think at times you’ve made some substantive and valid points. But the comment I deleted was unproductive and inaccurate. I have a post coming that will address and respond to some of Jon’s points, I hope.
Aw sorry :( Just I thought telling him to go away and do something else wasn’t really…I don’t know…MEAN, but maybe it’s the way I said it. Sorry Mo :(
Jon - you say you rarely see ‘obese’ people out cycling, hiking, jogging, etc. It couldn’t possibly be because when they do they’re abused for it, could it? How likely would anyone be to go out exercising in public if nearly every time they did so, assholes hurled insults from cars as they drove by, threw food or garbage at them, and generally tried to humililate and scare them into staying inside? The flip side is people making patronising “Keep it up!” comments.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Apparenltly popular consensus is that fat people should not leave the house until they have done enough Tae-Bo DVDs to be acceptably slim. Then they can go out and participate in fun outdoor activities, and only then.
Ohh, I always thought not exercising caused weight gain. But apparently it’s the hecklers.
Skittle, there is more to weight gain then not exercising and stopping at McDonald’s way too much. There’s pregesterone, which caused my size 14/16 mom to go up to an 18/20 and believe me, she does not spend her entire life in the drive-thru. There’s having chronic and pain and disabilities that prevent people from intense exercises. But you and the others who always repeat like a broken record “you fat lazy slob, get off your big butt and get moving and put down the fork” just can’t see past that worn-out stereotype.
BTW, I’m pleased to say that I have never been heckled while out walking. Maybe it’s because I move too fast and my iPod is on too high to hear it.
“Go run some local races, hike in the backcountry/local state park, or go ride your bike.”
I have done all those things in the past year (do not make assumptions about strangers on the web), and I have seen fat people. Do you perhaps have some selective blindness? Maybe it’s that I’m on the West Coast and our fat people go outside more? I don’t know.
“Many people on this blog are in denial and have convinced themselves that they are healthy. It’s amazing how calling them fat triggers some defensive response in them.”
Possibly it’s that you’re conflating fat and unhealthy. It’s certainly the case that as weight goes up, so does the prevalence of certain types of health problems. But it’s an imperfect association, and your self-righteousness isn’t helping anyone.
Sure, it’s not a perfect correlation. But it’s certainly a solid one.
There seems to be a lot of polarizing and groupthink here. Ex: Instead of discussing obesity, much time is spent condemning pop culture for glorifying the anorexic physique. And sure, that’s true and sad. But that’s not what the detractors are saying. They’re saying accept yourself, sure, but don’t encourage accepting being an out-of-breath 320lb woman who’s 5′4″. There is a difference between feeling beautiful and being content with your physique. Of course American culture has grown to discourage obesity. On the whole, it’s linked with poor halth and CERTAINLY linked with poor physical fitness.
I would place a very large bet that the vast vast majority of fathers who are 320lbs cannot play a round of soccer with their son. That’s something to be ancouraged.
So don’t equate my viewpoint with proanorexia. I am merely stating that as a rule of thumb (with exceptions) obese and morbidly obese Americans do not live healthy lifestyles. And before you strike back with anecdotal “but I run 80 miles a week!” Comments, keep in mind the internet crowd is self-selecting and generally healthier. Be willing to admit that as a general proposition, obesity is not a positive state of being. It’s not evikl, but it’s not usually healthy (defined in ability to run, blood pressure, energy level, propensity for disease, risks, life expectancy, etc.).
@skittles: I’m interested in this comment you made: keep in mind the internet crowd is self-selecting and generally healthier.
I’m not disagreeing with it, necessarily, but I wonder where you got this from? I tend to think that the demographics of people on internet forums and blogs would be more correlated to age (and possibly income) than anything else. I’m just curious.