Pretty, Fat
A provocative comment today, from veduna, on our past post about chubbygirl27.
The thing about chubbygirl27 is that she’s one of those really good-looking chubby girls, and she knows it. She doesn’t really represent the plain overweight women who, but for their size, would receive some attention but combined with their unspectacular looks, are completely looked past… Some overweight women have an unsympathetic double chin, and a fat face to boot. This makes the quintisential difference in being able to look good whilst overweight.
What we need are LESS PRETTY overweight women being proud and coming forward and showing that they can do all this as well. Personally though, I think chubbygirl27 represents the threshold at which a lot of men find acceptable anyway (again, she is VERY attractive) and therefore this negates her so-called ’struggle’ as she has more-or-less just as easy a time attracting the opposite sex than a pretty, normal-weighted girl.
To what extent do you believe this is true? I know you’re going to say that chubbygirl’s beauty does not “negate” her struggle–definitely not in a world where people like Kate Winslet struggle. But I know Melinda has written before about being a pretty fat girl, as opposed to a less attractive one, and she said much the same thing:
I’ve never, ever felt invisible. Doors are opened for me, customer service reps always take care of me, my employers have always treated me well. I’ve decided that it’s because I’m pretty. It seems to be okay to be fat if you are conventionally pretty. I worry about what might happen once I’ve lost the weight and I’m pretty AND thin (if I stay pretty…after all, I might have a face that’s only pretty when plump). Will anyone take me seriously? Or will the retired old Navy guys I work with suddenly see me as a piece of fluff that they don’t have to listen to?
So, here’s a challenge for you. Is there a line differentiating fat girls who are pretty from those who are not? And what do we do about it?
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I’ve always been one of the “she has such a pretty face” girls, but I’m fat. I don’t consider myself ugly, but I am unfit and even to me, unfit is unattractive. I get looks all the time–my boyfriend notices them more than I do–and I just always assume they are thinking “Damn, if only she weren’t fat…!” It’s a self-esteem thing, and as such, it doesn’t matter if you’re conventionally pretty or not if you carry yourself as though you are! I would say that I am honestly very pretty, but I wouldn’t say that I would ever be considered as attractive to the majority of people.
Well, I’m not that conventionally pretty, but over the past few years, I’ve developed a level of self-confidence and a sense of style that I was lacking when younger (especially as a teen).
In comparison, my best friend, who’s also fat and has been for most of her life, is more conventionally pretty and has the kind of personality that made her popular with the guys. She’s never had much trouble getting a boyfriend, and in fact, when we were 19 and both single, it was hard for me since guys always were more attracted to her than to me if we were in the same room.
On the other hand, I’m the kind of person that people remember after meeting…
This is a VERY interesting question. I, too, have always had a pretty face and have never had problems getting dates, etc. (with guys who appreciate curvy/chubby women). Maybe it’s because I’m on the “pretty” side, but I don’t really perceive that much of a divide between “pretty” and “non-pretty” fat girls. I know a lot of women, fat and thin, who aren’t conventionally pretty but have no problems finding dates, etc. because they carry themselves well and exude self-confidence. I think the divide is more about how you feel about yourself than whether you inherited a nice face.
I think women have to face an endless slew of lines. If it’s not thin vs. fat, it’s then pretty vs. ugly. Society seems to feel an unending need to categorize women that it seems isn’t necessary for men. Once a woman is categorized as “fat,” we have to then categorize her as “pretty” or “ugly.” I think “attractive” is a much more benign term, since it can denote any variety of physical characteristics, depending on your personal taste. It seems to me that once society categorizes a woman as fat, it then has to categorize her as pretty or ugly to determine whether she is a total loss. I would agree that fat women have it harder than thin women and that fat, ugly women have it harder than fat, pretty women. Unfortunately, I don’t think we’ll ever break out of the lines society draws for us, but I think that confidence is something that many people find attractive and that can change individuals’ opinions of your physical appearance. Now if we were just all strong enough to be confident all the time! I know I’m not.
Veduna’s comment doesn’t make sense to me at all because if a woman is confident and feels fabulous, she is, whether she’s conventionally pretty or not. Self confidence enhances a womans looks more than anything else can; it’s that powerful. That’s my humble opinion, but maybe I’m just biased. Fat, thin, or in between I think all women are beautiful. We are the most fantastic part of the population. :-D
There’s definitely a line. It’s the same line that separates pretty thin women from plain thin women. Or a rich fat man from a poor fat man. In a culture obsessed with looks and status, we’re always going to “rank” people. A thin, pretty woman is at the top. A fat, ugly woman at the bottom. Fat and plain, where I consider myself, just above that. A thin ugly girl, and a pretty fat girl are about equal – the looks cancel out the weight. As long as we insist on judging people, we need “rules” for deciding who is winning. And as long as that judgment is based on looks and/or status, those lacking in those categories will always come up at the bottom of the pile. What to do about? I’ve got no clue – if only!
Yeah, there’s a line. As a not-so-pretty fat girl, I’ve dealt with fat AND ugly comments and have spent years envying the pretty fat girls because she may be fat but at least she has a pretty face (for me there is also “pretty fat”, which is determined by how a person carries his/her fat: are they squishy-fat or firm-fat? I am squishy-fat. I know, it’s weird.). I do agree that confidence plays a big role in it but you know, after a while, there’s not a whole fucking lot to be confident about.
What do we do? I have no idea. I think for starters those of us who are “older” (age-wise or movement-wise) need to set an example for the “younger” ones. It’s a lot of self-regulating, at least for me, to stay away from comparisons. They are the basis of my low self-esteem life.
I have a thin friend who once told me that I was lucky that I was pretty, even if I am fat. Because, as a plain woman, she had to work very hard to maintain her figure, or she would be a total loss. Her theory was that, if you don’t have a great body, you had better be pretty, and if you aren’t pretty, you had better have a great body.
I’ve never been sure if I agree or not.
I’m with JET – I find it endlessly sad all of these divisions women must maneuver between which don’t exist for men on the same plane.
We’re so busy compartmentalizing ourselves into different categories of thin or fat, pretty or ugly, rich or poor, that we fail to unite to realize a collective vision where none of these things matter.
Here’s another question for everyone here: Do you think it is men who are dividing women into these warring factions, or is it more driven by women ourselves?
I am appalled by Veduna’s comments and I am angered by the hostility in her tone. It took me a long time to come to terms with myself and see beauty and confidence where there was self-hate and misery, and to have someone come along and say my struggle is less valid or your struggle is more authentic and things of that nature is only a blow to all of us collectively. How does it benefit even the women with prominent double chins if someone says to them, you are REALLY ugly, so you need to go express yourself. Its not the job of women trying to cope with their own problems to make sure women who are “uglier” (whatever that means) arent even more intimidated. When you look at chubbygirl, you are supposed to feel inspired, and if you start picking her apart on the basis that her fatness is somehow illegitimate, that is as hateful and useless to this discussion as the people that come by calling us fat chicks and telling us to shut up.
In response to Rachel, both men and women have a responsibility to fight subjugation on the levels of gender and size. I feel that if you have to draw lines you are missing that point, wherever those lines may be.
“Do you think it is men who are dividing women into these warring factions, or is it more driven by women ourselves?”
I believe that it’s a litttle bit of men and mostly women. Why? Well the first thing that comes to mind is the “good hair” vs. “nappy hair” divide in the black community. “Oh she’s pretty; she has ‘good hair’.” As if a beautiful black woman is less so with kinky hair in the eyes of other black women. If a woman (particularly a young girl) has naturally curly hair that can be styled easily without heat or chemicals, she is made to feel more worthy of attention. As a 37 year old grown black woman with curly hair, my hairdresser all but anounces to the other customers, “See!? She has CURLY hair. Isn’t it BEAUTIFUL!” I try to convey to her that ALL hair is beautiful, but due to her old school attitude about it (she’s 55 and has bought into this garbage her entire life) she clucks away my words.
In many ways I think it’s true that it’s more socially acceptable to be a “pretty” fat girl than a fat girl who is not conventionally attractive. (And I will admit that before I discovered fat acceptance I used to console myself with: “At least I’m pretty”) But in some ways it’s less acceptable because there are men who are just so outraged that you dare not to conform to their standards of what is attractive. You could be so hot if you just “took care of yourself”… how dare you not! As a pretty women, it’s your job to be a sex object for men, and woe betide you if you refuse. I do think it would be good to have some fat and conventionally unattractive women come forward as spokeswomen… but that doesn’t mean pretty women should be disqualified!
This is not true: “therefore this negates her so-called ’struggle’ as she has more-or-less just as easy a time attracting the opposite sex than a pretty, normal-weighted girl.” The amount of male attention I recieved as a pretty size 2/4/6 is not comparable, not even close to comparable to the amount of male attention I recieve as a pretty size 12/14. I still get some, but not even close to as much. (Which is really fine with me, because I’m engaged, and a lot of male attention is obnoxious).
Also, this: ” “chubbygirl27 got laid” or something like that. This in my opinion is unnecessary, one look at her very good looking face on any of her other videos would have told us that she wouldn’t have any problems in that department.” That’s not true at all. There are lots of men who would never, ever date or have sex with a fat girl (fat being more than like a size 8), no matter how pretty she was. And there are lots of girls who think they’re too fat for guys to want them, so seeing that a fat girl gets laid (whether pretty or not) can be encouraging.
“Do you think it is men who are dividing women into these warring factions, or is it more driven by women ourselves?”
In response to the above, I think it is everyone. I think it’s a big vicious cycle, where women are held to these standards, and both men and women buy into them. An interesting question would be if one sex just stopped dividing women into categories, whether it’s men or women, would the other sex stop as well? In other words, do men only do this to women because women themselves do it, or do women only do it because they feel like they have to please men who have this attitude and these standards?
I feel that there is a thin line that divides thin vs. fat and pretty vs. plain. I have often heard the term “Oh you have such a pretty face! You’d be even prettier if you lost 50 lbs….”
The fact of the matter is, guys will date a plain jane with a killer body but those same men will not date a fat chick with a beautiful face unless the fat part doesn’t bother them. In most cases it does… and I am speaking from personal experience.
I have my issues with size acceptance in some of its manifestations, but mo I just want to say first this is a great blog. That aside, I’m first time commenter, would have continued lurking but I absolutely can’t believe this shit.
Is the only struggle fat women face “attracting the opposite sex”? That’s what size acceptance boils down to? If the male gaze is approving enough, you don’t have a struggle, and you don’t deserve to comment on issues of size so STFU?
It’s hard to think of anything less feminist from a woman than telling another woman her looks and lifestyle (she sleeps with boys! onoez) disqualify her from speaking out as a woman on women’s issues (in this case the perception of size). How is that any different from the “NO FAT CHICKS” types who rule out anything a woman’s got to say if she doesn’t look like a Vogue covergirl?
Looking at this on a purely practical level “Sorry, honey, you’re too young and too pretty to have any idea about anything. Bugger off to skinny girl land, you have no idea of the struggle” is unlikely to win friends to the movement. Most of us get enough of that anyway that we’re unwilling to produce our birth certificate, show proof of our weight and put on a comedy witch mask before we can be taken seriously by the *special fat people.*
To answer Rachel’s question, I think that women mostly draw these lines based on what they think men find attractive. I think we are our own worst enemies in this regard and that men don’t even care about a lot of the things women seem to really worry about. I also think these lines aren’t going anywhere, but I think we can do our best to ignore them, which means supporting each other so that we all have the confidence to know that regardless of where other people would put us along the pretty v. ugly/fat v. thin spectrum, we are, in fact, all beautiful.
There are lines all over the place, not just for thick vs. thin girls. There are blonde vs. brunette, natural breasts vs. implants, tall vs. short – I could go on and on.
I think I do have a pretty face — along with intelligence, good humor, green eyes and a killer rack. Some of the things that make me “attractive” are embraced by society at large, others are not.
What to do about it? Ignore it. Work what you have – whether that be integrity, wit or long eyelashes. You don’t need the world’s approval – you only need one soul mate and a few good friends who “get you” and see your beauty.
As a Pretty Fat Girl (Pretty, period. I despise the statements that anyone has ‘such a pretty face’. I’m pretty, and there are no acceptable disclaimers attached to that word.) I am confident and outgoing and smart. While it has been at least 8 years since I graduated high school and last suffered at the hands of a fat comment, I can’t get a date to save my life. I am told often by my two friends that I’m gorgeous and awesome and that boys are dumb, but I really have nothing to show for it. I don’t think it’s fat vs. thin, pretty vs. ugly, or even easy vs. prudish. I think it’s chemistry and pheromones, and without that ‘extra’ something, Pretty doesn’t seem to matter a whole lot.
Hard to say, really. I would say that there are some people who are held back by unconventional looks (of whatever kind) and some who are not. I have known people who were not at all good-looking by objective standards, but you never really noticed because they blew you away with their charm… Does that mean they didn’t obsess over their less-pretty features? Probably not. I think erynthenerd is right.
Do I think it’s fair to say “you’re pretty, therefore your problems aren’t as bad as mine are”? No. Though it might be tempting to think so sometimes. (And I can’t logically agree with anyone who is saying that chubbygir27 isn’t That Fat and therefore can’t have anything to say, because I’m around the same size as she is.)
Even pretty fat girls probably dread anyone seeing them in shorts (or less).
As someone who heard the expressions “boys don’t make passes at girls who have fat asses” and the other one that rhymes “boys don’t make passes at girls who wear glasses” from society in general growing up I just internalized the message that I wasn’t going to be considered attractive whether or not I was fat. So for me, in order to have any self-esteem I developed my intelligence. I still don’t think I am very attractive at all. I’ve had people tell me I am and I don’t see it at all. What’s funny is that I know I can look good, I almost choose not to.
I know that I am ignored more than women who are considered more attractive. That doesn’t bug me. What does bug me sometimes is when I’m told I’m attractive. My response sometimes is basically “ok, what do you want. you can’t possibly want me for me so what purpose are you using me for”
As you can see, this comment is long and I still have a very long way to go in terms of myself in terms of my looks.
Pretty is pretty and will get you more places regardless of whether you’re fat or thin.
Of course, I speak as one of the unpretty ones. I’m also one of the invisible ones. I’ve also been told I’m too smart and, being self-confident, ‘frightening’ and ‘too aggressive’. Can’t win for trying!
Oo, forgot to add: for a long time, most of my closest friends were male. They liked me, but honestly none of them ever considered me dating material, and even when I did consider them, I learned to quickly get over it. Now my friends are more balanced, but I have to say none of my female friends are conventionally ‘pretty’. Attractive, maybe, but otherwise plain Janes. And, all of my friends are, uh, odd, so maybe that has something to do with it as well – we’re all to weird for mainstream America!
not_chuffed, thank you:
Is the only struggle fat women face “attracting the opposite sex”?
Reminds me of that quote about how women could solve all the world’s problems if we only stopped worrying about the size of our thighs.
The struggle is equal pay, equal opportunities, being treated humanely by health care professionals, and so many other things.
As a younger fat girl, I think some men didn’t like me because of my size. But I think other men were put off by my extreme insecurity, anger and defensiveness. It was hard for me to reconcile some of those issues, because I had this great built in excuse – they didn’t like me because I was fat.
Learning to love myself opened the door for others to love me too. I’ve been in a healthy relationship for several years now.
I think this is similar to the argument of ‘shape privilege;’ as in an ‘hourglass’ woman is more privileged than a ‘pear’ or ‘apple’ woman, and so on. Frankly, I think both theories are a load of shit. As a fat, pretty, hourglass-shaped girl, all my privileges worked out to me being ignored by and large. So much for that, eh?
I would really love to know where are all the fellow fat girls are getting dates! I’m a fat girl and I have a date or relationship in about two or three years. Prior to that it was about another three or four years.
Face it, fat girls don’t get dates regardless of a pretty face or not. Society conditions men to only like a certain body type – slender with big breasts. If you don’t fit that then you’re out of the dating game. Well you might be considered f#$%able if it’s the end of the night and a guy is desparate. Then you can be the laughingstock of his friends.
Honestly I don’t think confidence has a damn thing to do with it. I’ve tried being confident, vivacious and every time the thin girls win. I have overheard men’s comments when I am out with friends “well hot girls have to have at least one fat ugly friend to make them look hotter.” Because in our society fat=ugly no matter how pretty the face is. Sadly nobody loves a fat girl – pretty or not.
I really don’t think dating is about body type. I’ve been fat for most of my life and a had a hard time until I decided I was datable. It had to come from inside me. I went through a bunch of assholes as I was working through what I really wanted (like many women do) until I found the love of my life.
It’s not about being confident (although that helps) or perky (that depends on the guy) it’s about knowing deep down that you are totally lovable and then letting go and not worrying about it. One of my best friends is a fat girl (aprox. a size 28/30 if it matters) and she literally gets picked up in traffic. She told me once that she leaves the house every morning knowing that everyone wants to fuck her. Whether that’s true or not doesn’t really matter–what matters is that her energy is infectious and she’s a joy to be around. All sorts of people flock to her including men.
I’ve been involved in size acceptance for about 15 years (mostly, online). I grew up fat. I wore a size 20 when I was 12 years old. Until my early 20s, it really didn’t occur to me that some men might find me attractive. You know, normal men – non-fetishists, men who weren’t desperate or looking for someone with low self esteem. In those years between 14 and 22, when I should have been dating, I thought I was damaged goods. That’s the time in people’s lives when they learn about sex and relationships, and when they experiment and figure out what they want, and what doesn’t work for them. I went straight into a 12 year long relationship at 22, then transitioned into another one with no real gap in between. For the most part, I did not have boyfriends in high school and undergrad. I missed out on an important part of growing up. I’m sure a lot of people here can relate.
I should also mention that I’m good looking. I have one of those firm-looking, well proportioned bodies. Technically, I’m pear shaped, but I somehow give the impression of being an hourglass, probably because my rib cage and shoulders are wide. I also have a pretty face, with big brown eyes and prominent cheek bones.
Here’s what I want to point out: I’m good looking now, but I was even better looking as a teenager – at least potentially. But, until I acquired some sexual confidence, it didn’t matter at all. Good looks help, but what’s really attractive is an ability to have fun, to make other people feel good, and to project your own enjoyment of life. You have to be open, and you have to be willing to take risks. When I was a teenager, I was just terrified of being humiliated. I just didn’t connect with people on a sexual level. When boys had crushes on me, I didn’t even notice. Being a pretty fat chick wasn’t an advantage to me then, at least not in that area.
Today, I’m proud of my appearance, and I’m happy that I’ve learned to appreciate it. I like to post pictures, because I remember being a child and teenager with NO positive adult role models who looked like me. I didn’t have any reason to believe that I could grow up fat, stay fat, and have a full, happy life. I had no idea that I could be beautiful – and attractive – without getting thin. And, there were certainly no successful fat women in the media when I was growing up. Fat and confident? Fat and intelligent? Fat and disciplined? Never depicted.
Being fat always puts you at a disadvantage in our society, but I’m happy to have a few mitigating factors. Yes, I’m aware of the relative privilege afforded to those of us with solid, curvy, mid-sized bodies and pretty faces, and I’m very happy to have it. I often feel that I have to justify my presence in the SA community, though.
Apparently, I don’t look fat to some people, so when I post a picture, I often point out:
“I weigh over 200 pounds at 5′-4″”
“I’ve never been non-plus sized. I wear a 16-18W.”
“I was a very fat kid.”
“I’m 30 pounds over the cutoff for clinical obesity.”
Just because someone has a body and/or face that you think would “cancel out” the negative effects of being fat, it doesn’t mean that being fat hasn’t had a profound effect on her life. It doesn’t mean that she’s involved in the size acceptance movement in order to be one on the thin and pretty people. And, you wouldn’t believe the weird attitudes people (men, especially) have when you’re good looking and fat. “You could be really hot, but you choose not to be! How dare you.”
Speaking as one of those fat chicks, and I don’t mean a size 12 fat chick that happens to be more than pretty….
I’m tired of women doing this to other women. I don’t think we should count on or expect guys (as a general group) to take the less beaten path and hook up with a fat chick (unless it’s in major private!) I don’t think we can or should to anyone for our self esteem, especially not men who know nothing of what is like to be judged solely on your looks.
So what do I think the real problem is? Women. We are constantly drawing these lines, fuckable, not fuckable, thin and pretty, thin and ugly, fat and pretty, fat and ugly…..who cares? I think it’s all in trying to one up each other, ‘Oh at least I’m not fat AND UGLY! That would be too much to handle.’ And I think it’s our way of trying to make ourselves feel better. ‘At least I’m not…’ in a way to console ourselves for what we think is self esteem but saying those kinds of things is no way to get or display self esteem.
I think women have to stop ripping each other apart, calling everyone bitches, talking shit on a saggy ass or loose boobs and just be happy and in tune with themselves. If we had more women who were *TRULY* and not just for the internet comments but TRULY confident and truly happy with themselves they wouldn’t rip someone apart based on their looks. They wouldn’t catagorize other women into what is safe and what may be a threat.
As women, we are discounted enough (notice no one mentioned a “fat smart girl” or a “skinny smart girl”) based on our looks, and as fat women we are always hanging on to a shred of hope that just because we are fat…there is literally more to us we have things to offer.
I just wish we would stop trying to fit everyone into a little box of what is acceptable or attractive.
“If we had more women who were *TRULY* and not just for the internet comments but TRULY confident and truly happy with themselves they wouldn’t rip someone apart based on their looks. ”
Cutting and pasting that particular paragragh was not my saying that your whole post didn’t rock, it’s just that the statement hit the nail DIRECTLY on the head for me because I feel the same way. If one sees the beauty in herself and cherishes her being as is, she will see it in others.
“So what do I think the real problem is? Women. We are constantly drawing these lines, fuckable, not fuckable, thin and pretty, thin and ugly, fat and pretty, fat and ugly…..who cares? I think it’s all in trying to one up each other, ‘Oh at least I’m not fat AND UGLY! That would be too much to handle.’ And I think it’s our way of trying to make ourselves feel better. ‘At least I’m not…’ in a way to console ourselves for what we think is self esteem but saying those kinds of things is no way to get or display self esteem.”
I agree with what your post says, but I haven’t seen any “pretty” fat women ripping on other fat women for being “ugly.” What I have seen is women who think of themselves as less attractive expressing annoyance at the privilege of women who they see as more attractive. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen. I just haven’t seen it. Maybe you could provide a link?
When I look at the toxic comments about fat women on YouTube, it seems like most of them are from men, not from women.
ho_cho – everything you said is totally right on, all I can say is “Ditto!”
J – Do women who aren’t white ever get dates? Do women with brown hair and brown eyes get dates? Do women with pimples get dates? Do short women get dates? After all, aren’t white, blonde, blue eyed women with long legs are alabaster skin are held up as the ideal in this society. Men are “conditioned” to find them more attractive than anyone else, so according to your logic, the rest of us should die virgins, since no one would ever want us. Why do I know so many fat gals with boyfriends/husbands if your theory that fat women will never be wanted is true? Oh and I am married and have small breasts – according to you, there must be something really wrong with my hubby (who actually prefers small breasts). Was he insufficently conditioned to want big boobies for his woman? Should he get help with this?
J, I can tell from your post that if you can’t get a date, it probably has little to do with your size, and a whole lot to do with your dour attitude Stop using it as a excuse, and try to leave the rest of us out of your pity party.
I really feel like I’m seeing the creepy underpinnings of SA here. It’s like a girls’ locker room where everyone’s checking out how pretty they are compared to the others…and muttering darkly about others who “think they’re so hot”.
I have never heard of anything as ridiculous in my life as “shape privilege”. Do you reckon male activists sit around talking about “knob length privilege” or “six pack privilege”, let alone indulging in self criticism about it? It’s an academic game for middle class women, and that’s me being complimentary.
(I googled “shape privilege” and am still recovering. )
Talk about struggle! There’s a battleground right here and you’re all on it.
Thank you to the people on this thread who get the fact that it’s ridiculous for us as fat women, indeed us as *women*, to judge each other in this way (and who resisted the temptation to post a screed on how hot or not they are, with measurements as proof).
That last comment seems off target to me. I just skimmed through the thread (after reading the whole thing), and nobody has posted measurements. In fact, there are very few posts that read as judgmental, and none where people are judging each other’s appearance. After all, we can’t see each other. All I see is posts criticizing the idea that women’s differing appearances matter. I see a lot of shaming of women who are willing to discuss their perception of their appearance and how it’s affected them, whether it’s positive or negative.
If a woman mentions that she’s good looking, does that imply a negative judgement of others, or can it stand alone as a positive comment about one aspect of herself? If a woman mentions that she’s intelligent, does that imply that she thinks others are stupid? Would it be better if we didn’t comment on ourselves at all, either positively or negatively? Would it be better if nobody posted pictures online, to ensure that we don’t start sorting each other into categories?
But, isn’t it partly about our self image, and partly about how we’re treated in the world because of our appearance? Isn’t that why we’re discussing the impact of differences in the appearances of women who are classified as “fat.”? Isn’t an absence of positive depictions of fat women in the media one reason why we struggle with insecurities about not just our physical attractiveness, but our potential for achievement in other areas?
Deeleigh:
There is no link, I am talking about real life. Real women, getting together and talking about other women. In the work place, in bars, in restaurants, while shopping, at a party, in school. There are many women who do that, and many women in my own circle of friends who do…and I know there are women in every work place, probably every circle of friends etc who do this.
I think a lot of the women who say they are ugly, who think they are ugly are made to feel that way…but I also think there are just women out there who don’t feel they measure up to their friends, or just other women.
So, I wasn’t really talking about online or on Youtube (which I’ve only been to a few times) and I refuse to read the comments because I know I will run into these people who are so horrible and nasty because it’s easy from a computer. I just don’t think we should rate ourselves, and decide our worth even on a physical level based on anyone else or their opinions.
J:
I’ll tell you what, all personal relationships and sexual escapades that contrast your theory aside….
My best friend is 5’10, Iranian but very into Urban/Hip Hop culture and is about 300 lbs. When I look at her JUST physically I think she’s attractive, but when we go out…there are literally men GRABBING her, talking to her, giving her money, asking her out on dates, offering dinner, offering her all sorts of things. She has a steady boyfriend and has had many many many dates and a few one night stands.
I’ve NEVER heard anyone mention her size negatively nor have I ever and I mean EVER gone anywhere with her where someone didn’t try to chat her up.
So. You’re wrong, fortunately. With the obesity rate what it is, and at least half of that rate female……..are they all single!? Hell no we aren’t.
If you can’t get a date, or can’t get a boyfriend maybe take your focus off the fact that you are fat and single. And your true issues will rise to the top for you to work on. Realize that having a boyfriend or a sexual partner isn’t the most important thing in the world and more than anything…you can’t ‘try confidence.’ You are, or you aren’t. It’s not for recreational purposes.
“I have overheard men’s comments when I am out with friends “well hot girls have to have at least one fat ugly friend to make them look hotter.”
J,
When men (or anyone else for that matter) make comments like that, trust me it has nothing to do with you; it’s their issues showing. There are many people out there who feel better only when they’re cutting on someoene else. I had a roommate like that and let me tell you that man had more issues than a fashion magazine.
I would never, ever denigrate self-confidence. Self-confidence is great for everyone.
I just don’t think that confidence is what makes people — men especially — go weak in the knees.
If it were, Janet Reno and Madeline Albright would be considered pin-up girls. Both of these women are examples of confidence, but the former, especially, is never *not* criticized for being — how shall I say this? — cosmetically unfit.
In my personal experience, it doesn’t matter how much self-confidence you have. If you’re overweight, have a thick neck, round face and acne, your chances of spending a lot of nights alone spikes.
Cindy is right. And it has to do with the fact that men are stimulated more by vision than women are.
I’ve gotten “pretty face” all my life, but I’m still large. Some men like me and others look at me like I’m some monster. I guess it depends on personal preference.
I am a fat chick. I admit it. My husband met and married me a fat chick. Has not one issue being seen with me in public. He takes me places I have only dreamed of. Hawaii, even! I am a very spoiled wife. I think you make of your life what you put into it. Please don’t let negative people tell you how you should live your lives. You are so worth more than that!
I heard it said once that a small body is less intimidating to men than a pretty face. I believe it. So… I’d guess that the plain small woman gets more dates than her beautiful fat friend. Not necessarily more attention–just more action.
I also knew a guy who cheated on his tiny girlfriend with a chubby girl, and it struck me then that the sexlessness of fat was not the problem. The problem is that fat doesn’t reflect well on a guy, however deliciously it bounces.
Now a guy who needs to sport a little bratz doll on his arm to feel manly is not someone I want to be with. And the feeling is mutual–I’m tall and well over the size limit for THAT ride.
As for the other problems we face being fat/unshapely/ugly/pimply… I notice that hasn’t been the focus of this discussion, but in my experience it has helped me to be taken more seriously in my career. I think the last time anyone (other than family members) felt at liberty to criticize my size to my face was when I was 13. I’ve got enough attitude for that.
But I’m dateless. I can’t muster the “I’m what you want” attitude. Fat isn’t the only issue I’m working through, there. I don’t really know what else to say, other than that I think it comes down to attitude–and recognizing which men are interested in you.
Deeleigh, you make very good points, and I’d like to respond.
“If a woman mentions that she’s good looking, does that imply a negative judgement of others, or can it stand alone as a positive comment about one aspect of herself?”
Generally, I’d like to see all women describe themselves as goodlooking and feel that they are goodlooking…whether they are very fat or very thin or whatever. But I think in this thread it *does* imply a negative judgement of others because it’s saying “well I am a pretty girl, read my measurements as proof….
“If a woman mentions that she’s intelligent, does that imply that she thinks others are stupid?”
That depends on context, no?
“Would it be better if nobody posted pictures online, to ensure that we don’t start sorting each other into categories”
Well, it depends again. Posters where, in what communities and for what reasons?
“Isn’t that why we’re discussing the impact of differences in the appearances of women who are classified as “fat.”? ”
What use is this to anyone, though? OMG you’re a hourglass so you get an extra 1 percent of male attention! DAMN YOU.
To me, we have to stop wasting our time discussing other women and how it just isn’t fair that their body shape/presentation “oppresses others” because men find it more attractive or whatever. The idea of “shape privilege” is crazy. We’re all oppressed.
Being found more attractive by the dominant sex and class is meaningless…and it brings with it another set of oppressions. For those women, it isn’t freedom but a different kind of yoke. I was disgusted when I read that comment “can’t understand the struggle” because we all struggle as women, no matter what our weight is.
erynthenerd: so right about the pretty face comment. Argh. I’m annoyed at myself for using it. Heard it all my life, and it’s such a backhanded compliment.
I weigh 230 pounds, and I have NEVER had trouble getting a date, getting laid, or getting into a long-term relationship. I guess I’m one of the “pretty” fat girls. I didn’t get fat until after high school, but always thought I was fat because I’d been fat as a kid.
i know how you all feel. i was once thin, but depression caused my wieght problem. al the time i hear, you are a pretty girl, but you are just too fat. and i think you are a jerk, but you have a little penis!
I believe that mostly, it’s heterosexual women who put these expectations ON EACH OTHER. This is ironic because they rarely discuss men’s attractiveness even though they are hetero, and instead analyze other girls’ appearances to death, and often in a manner that is either cruel (“she’s ugly/fat”) or self-deprecating. I see the hideous men they date while cruelly appraising every girl that walks by. Many heterosexual women buy into the belief that the only thing that matters is their own and other women’s looks, and all of their hobbies and time center around “being hot” so (usually ugly) men can like them. I’m thin and quite pretty but I am VERY VERY SHORT, and because of this, I take a lot of crap from people. In addition, I am queer and primarily attracted to thick girls, so I believe that through past lovers who had to deal with fatphobic bullshit as well as the crap I encounter every day of my life about being short (mostly from other women, I might add) and being queer (AGAIN from other women, when I tell a guy I’m a dyke he says “cool”, while hetero women say stupid things like “But you’re PRETTY”, to which I reply, “Yeah, and men are ugly. I’d rather be with another pretty person”) I can extrapolate. Sure, men can be jerks about women’s looks (hypocritical jerks I might add, given that most of them are far from bathing beauties themselves), but I’ve found that this sort of behavior both lessens as the male in question gets older, and also there are MANY segments of the male population who don’t act like frat boy jerks. Meanwhile, almost every heterosexual woman I’ve met has not grown out of looks-obsession, viewing other women as nothing more than their looks, and viewing all men as wonderful and worthy of competing for no matter whether she is a 16 year old Britney Spears fan or a 32 year old indie rocker. It is very depressing.
as a size 16 / 18 year old female who is told how gorgeous i am by friends etc its still hard 2 get a man seriously do men really care about weight ?? I have a friend whos pretty but over 200 kilos and she snapped up a hunk we were all so dam surpsrsed as yes she is one of the larger people who never gets looked at made fun off and dresses like she dnt care we need 2 get real no matter how beautifull ones face is regardless of size if a feam;le with a gorgeous bdoy walks by with a head like a dog trust me the man ya with wnt notice u sorry it seems men would prefer a hot bod unnatractive face , 2 a gorgeous model like face with an avergae body any day weather that be normall body slighly plump or overweigh a hot bod will win hands down b4 they ever notice a model like face which is not on a perfect body sorry guys its reality