I agree with so much of what you said. I think on one level Fat Males and Gender conflict in a way not many Fat Women can identify with and to have our experiences so easily brushed aside creates problems.

I have just downloaded this paper:

Body & Society, Vol. 13, No. 1, 107-131 (2007)
DOI: 10.1177/1357034X07074780
© 2007 SAGE Publications
Feminism and the Invisible Fat Man
Kirsten Bell

Anthropology Department at Macquarie University in Sydney, Australia

Hi B4C

I agree with so much of what you said. I think on one level Fat Males and Gender conflict in a way not many Fat Women can identify with and to have our experiences so easily brushed aside creates problems.

I have just downloaded this paper:

Body & Society, Vol. 13, No. 1, 107-131 (2007)
DOI: 10.1177/1357034X07074780
© 2007 SAGE Publications
Feminism and the Invisible Fat Man
Kirsten Bell

Anthropology Department at Macquarie University in Sydney, Australia

http://bod.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/13/1/107

It seems to be good even though Australia has some very warped ideas on fat and especially fat males.

It will have to yet to tomorrow night for me to read it, it is 26 pages of pdf pages.

William

I

OPEN ENDED and is easily interpreted as divisive.

There are examples all over the internet of the written word failing to completely convey a point. Perhaps this is one of those times. Shall we test it with a bit of emphasis on some of the more critical words and see what subtext that might bring?

A) Fat *IS* a Feminist issue. . . Despite the fact that it is, at best, ignored by the Feminist community or, at worst, denigrated with a viciousness that could almost rival a, woman objectifying, misogynists.

B) Fat is a *FEMINIST* issue. . . Therefore Males (fat or otherwise) have no valid or relevant input.

Both statements may be logically inferred, however I think we can all agree that ONE is more inflammatory than the other. As to that; how many times and in how many forums has this statement been made? How often did males (like myself) appear objecting, disagreeing , or citing examples of inclusive oppression. What’s up with THAT? Why does it happen so often?

Perhaps because, in the context of statement B) the statement IS competitive / confrontational. It says, or at the very least IMPLIES that the oppression of fat bigotry is (*exclusively*) a female condition. It says / implies; ‘We are claiming Fat as an active Cause and anyone not Female enough to be included need not apply’. That would make it appear not only divisive but actively exclusionary.

I’ve seen arguments in this very thread to the effect that this is not about who suffers more discrimination followed closely by examples of why X suffers more than Y. Well, perhaps fat men will have to wait until we are passed over (Been there done that. New Boss was thinner, had less experience, oh- and was female), paid less (Doing that one right NOW), or until the diet industrial complex comes after us. Although I doubt John Basedow and most of the other fitness based diet scams are trying to sell six pack abs to many females. Dan Marino (former NFL QB) crowing about how he got back to his playing weight with NutriWhatever? Can’t see that appealing to lots of woman. Well, ‘least men aren’t being convinced to mutilate their own bodies. . . . Wait, ‘pectoral enhancement’ does rival breast implants in some places and liposuction isn’t just for women anymore. Anorexia? Zero body fat + compulsive exercise. We don’t really need to discuss WLS, do we?

Tell you what, lets agree that it’s a sick, twisted world we happen to inhabit and leave it at that, shall we? As I think I mentioned earlier; There really is enough self loathing to overcome in the fat community without further subdividing ourselves and handing out even MORE unacceptable attributes / criteria that some of our number cannot change.

As I stated previously I don’t think Fat is is SOLELY a femminist issue. That is where I was taking my umbrage with the discussion at hand at the time.

If you want to be technical, then yes, it is a Femminist Issue.

But is also a Male Issue

A Older person issue

A younger person issue

A Gay or Straight person issue.

Again, as I stated before it is a HUMAN issue.

That was the crux of my point.

It was my perception that this entire blog was about Fat issues first and foremost, not femminist issues.

Nowhere did I say “what about me” because I am a male. I simply pointed out, from a fat males perspective that we too have to deal with the same issues, the degree of which really doesn’t matter.

If as a community we are to ever expect to change the view of the world about people of size then we have to do it collectively, not independent of eachothers gender.

The difference between us is that I was using those statements about Fat Women as a analogy toward some of the similar statements made by people here about the experiences of Fat men. I do not believe that any of those facts about Fat Women that I listed makes the experiences of Fat Women any less. Neither do I think that the experiences of Fat Women lessen the Experiences of Fat Men.

I do not think competitively, outside of conversations like this I speak of Fat People. Of course I am focusing on the Fat Male side of issue in this thread, I should say that there were also several other freethinkers in this conversation, but not enough.

The only reason that I am focusing in the Fat Male side of the Issue is that too much of the conversation here has been about minimizing the Fat Male experience. I am not the one that has been making the comparisons in this conversation and I have never minimized the experiences of Fat Women.

William

THIS is the crux of our disagreement. You are thinking competitively: your pain is bigger than my pain. This is NOT the way to think. MY pain is DIFFERENT than YOUR pain. Not easier. Oh, no, NOT easier. But of course, you think it is. And that is why you dismiss feminism.

It’s always ‘what about teh menz’ with you guys. You always think you have it worse. Always.

Let me say that I have no doubt that Fat is a Feminist Issue, but what you need to ask yourself is if Feminism to you such a huge issue that it cancels out the word Fat in the words “Fat Male”.

In your last post you mainly talked of males and females while I have only focused on Fat People (female and male).

You said:

“As a feminist, it’s not my job to constantly refer to men’s experiences.”

Too late you already have done this when you make statements that limit and define the experiences of a
whole other group of Fat People (fat men).

You also said:

….. FEMINISM IS NOT ABOUT MEN. This conversation is not about men. Not everything is about men, you know. I know that’s hard to swallow for some guys. Feminism is about women……

This topic is not only about Feminism, half of it is about Fat and like it or not Fat Men exist.

I think that the real question of this thread is “Is Fat Primarily a Feminist Issue” because of comments like these:

……..Why is it a feminist issue? Because only women are hounded for our weight 24/7 in every possible media venue. Because women are constantly being pressured to conform to fuckability standards – weight, hair, makeup, clothes, shoes, and sexual compliance are only some of the things that women are subjected to.

Men are not subject to these pressures to conform. Men are only considered fat if they are well over 50 lbs. overweight. Every inch of a man’s body does not have to be fat-free, sculpted, cellulite-free, etc. for him to be considered a real man. A woman with fat on her body (except breasts and hips) is hardly a woman at all…….

If the above is true then where are the Fat Men on the beaches, or playing sports without shirts, where are the fat men on fashion magazines and advertisements? There are not even Fat Men in Fat Male clothes catalogs!! How many fat male movie stars are out there that play fat characters that fight evil? Why aren’t magazines like Mens Health saying that it is OK not to have abs of steel.

I could say that in may ways Fat Women have it easier because women are suppose to fatter than men because they have babies, that having a fat butt and fat breasts do not effect Fat Women on the same scale as it does Fat Males. I could say that Fat Women have a easier time than Fat Males being described as a soft bodies.

Just as all politics are local and all feelings are personal. We can identify with what each other experiences, but we can not compare because we truly do not know what the other person has experienced.

The differences in the experiences of Fat Men and Women can not be explained in a sentence or two.

William

In our culture, the default human is male. It’s assumed that any conversation about humans is about men first, and oh, maybe women, too. As a feminist, it’s not my job to constantly refer to men’s experiences. I certainly don’t hear men acknowledging MY point of view in most conversations.

Your unwillingness to include feminism as one of the issues in fat acceptance is a typical example of what we feminists like to call “what about teh menz?” In which, if I say, “women experience ABC,” a man says, “But what about the men! So do we!” And then the women’s point of view gets squashed with lots of menz going on about how life isn’t fair because women are distracting people from the REAL issue, which of course isn’t anything to do with WOMEN, after all.

I remind you: women are half the fat planet.

I am sad to hear you talk like this. I am not dismissing Fat Women’s issues, but I feel there is a way to express Fat Women’s Issues without minimizing Fat Male issues and their life experiences.

When Fat Women share their experiences I am the first to support them. When I read recent comments from people like:

“today men also are starting to experience fat discrimination” I am the first to be their to exclaim that Fat Men have been discriminated against for as long as I remember.

From the locker room at Elementary School as a boy to any adult locker room a Fat Man may be in, society’s views are present.

Also I pointed out that Fat Women do get more opposition, but that is not same as the acceptability of either gender being fat which is what I have focused on!

On the beach or on the internet straight Fat Men are far less likely disrobe then Fat Women. If it was more acceptable for Fat Men to be Fat then you would see far more Fat Men in revealing clothes or in public wearing swim-wear.

All I am saying to you is don’t edit out the experiences of Fat Men in your conversation.

Unlike you I will not say you are not a ally of Fat Men, but you have a distorted view of our experiences.

William

Until you acknowledge that, you are not a true ally to fat women.