Is Fat A Feminist Issue?
In case anyone missed the very interesting discussion in the comments to this post, I wanted turn it into its own post. I feel like there’s a lot more to say about this issue (or at least a lot more I’d love to hear about). In the original post, I talked about the way fat women in particular are addressed on Facebook:
Yes, fat is indeed a feminist issue. If you’re not thin (or you’re fat but you don’t have the mitigating factor of large breasts) you’re not fulfilling your role as sex object of horny college boys, and therefore deserve to be excoriated on Facebook. And if you are fat, you’d better not dress provocatively, or publicly exercise (yes, there are groups for that), or do anything except hide yourself away and lose weight.
I also included a link to this post by Jezebella, listing reasons fat is a feminist issue, including:
5. The more time we spend worrying about our weight, the less happy and productive we are. A woman who spends two hours at the gym every day will never finish her dissertation and get a tenure-track job, nor will she make partner at a law firm, nor will she have time to do things that make HER happy, whether that is knitting, political action, or doing yoga.
7. Why is it a feminist issue? Because only women are hounded for our weight 24/7 in every possible media venue. Because women are constantly being pressured to conform to fuckability standards – weight, hair, makeup, clothes, shoes, and sexual compliance are only some of the things that women are subjected to.
8. Men are not subject to these pressures to conform. Men are only considered fat if they are well over 50 lbs. overweight. Every inch of a man’s body does not have to be fat-free, sculpted, cellulite-free, etc. for him to be considered a real man. A woman with fat on her body (except breasts and hips) is hardly a woman at all.
10. Being fat is considered a failure of personality, of will, of character. For women. Men are encouraged to eat big portions, giant steaks, drippy disgusting burgers and fries: this is considered manly. Women, however, are not supposed to eat in public. Especially fat women.
New reader Matt came by and challenged a couple of things about that post, saying that seeking out fatism is a way to turn ourselves into victims, and adding:
Additionally, contrary to popular belief, fat is not soley a femminist issue. You don’t think fat men are discriminated against? You don’t think we are called names, looked at like we are disgusting? You don’t think people don’t make comments about how a fat guy should dress?
You are sadly mistaken there. Its a common thing though, to internalize the hate. For years I thought BBWs had it so much easier than big men. I mean just look at the pleothra of BBW Chat rooms, BBW night clubs across the country, the relative ease a BBW has at finding clothes to fit ( now I will grant you the styles are horrendous and that is an issue) but as a big man, I don’t get those things. There isn’t a night club dedicated to just BHMs or Chat rooms. Casual Big and Tall barely carries anything over a size 56 pant.
But see, I was internalizing what I was feeling unto myself, a guy.
Fact is Fat and more importantly Fat Hate and Fat Discrimination is a HUMAN ISSUE, sex has nothing to do with it.
A couple of commenters disagreed with him, like spacedcowgirl:
I think this is NOT true. I think fat people of both genders have a really tough row to hoe, but I think that specific issues for fat women are tied up in other people, or patriarchal society, or whatever you want to call it, feeling like they can and should be able to control women’s bodies and dictate what they should look like, occupy women with “busy work” like trying to diet and exercise into a size 4 and keep their bodies hair-free, etc. etc.
MizShrew added:
I’m not trying to minimize the difficulties in finding clothes, clubs, etc. for fat men; but not recognizing the misogynistic aspect of some of these groups, comments, etc. is a mistake, I think. The rise of women-centered fat acceptance chat rooms, night clubs, etc., is a direct response to the very vocal, very direct, and incredibly prevalent attitudes toward fat women in our culture, not a reflection of increased acceptance by that culture. Fat women have had to create their own culture of acceptance.
I found these comments extremely thought-provoking, and I’m interested in hearing what everyone else thinks, especially the men out there. What’s been your experience? Do you think fat is a feminist issue? Does it have a feminist component? Are we in danger of casting ourselves as victims, or alienating men out there, if we talk about it?
Posted by mo pie
I think that fat is a feminist issue. I also think it is a civil rights issue, increasingly (no pun intended).
What I find frustrating is that the philosophy of feminism is a gender divider. Feminism is not really about just women. Yes, it is based on the premise that women have gotten an unfair shake in a patriarchal society, but there are some ways that men have also been oppressed in the same system. They just often were able to access privileges that made some of those oppressions less relevant. But there have often been men who were oppressed or considered “womanly.”
The most prominent example would be gay men or men who presented as less masculine to the world. I think the last part could be considered true for big men. Especially these days, real men are supposed to be those with the perfect body. Feminism is also about accepting men as they are and not forcing them into particular roles or stereotypes.
I think there is plenty evidence to show that men are also affected by size issues: if nothing else, the fact that anorexia DOES occur in men (rare though it may be) indicates that fat hatred can and will affect men as well as women. If this were not the case, i would be more comfortable agreeing on the matter.
I think it’s not that men don’t experience fat hatred, i think it just comes in a very different form. IME, fat hatred for women comes in the form of “stupid, ugly, gross, lazy, less of a person” etc.
From what i’ve seen and picked up on, fat hatred towards a man comes with all of the same stuff, but also a fair amount of “you’re less of a MAN” – directly attacking their masculinity. I’ve known fat guys who were able to completely shrug that off and not give a care about it… but i’ve known slimmer gents who were terrified of gaining weight for that very reason.
Meanwhile, i’ve never had anyone tell me (and i recognize that i could be an exception to a rule, here) that my fat made me less of a woman – or not a woman at all. Less of a person, yes… but i’ve seen guys get the same thing.
So i think it’s very difficult to make a statement one way or the other about this particular topic. On one hand, this is something that can affect people of either gender, but the reactions come across differently, and have different effects on men and women. But hell, i could be wrong. It’s happened before.
So to try to summarize: is fat a feminist issue? Probably… but it’s not JUST a feminist issue.
i just wanted to point out in response to the previous comment, that anorexia is not only about wanting to be thin and the hatred people who suffer from this disease feel towards themselves is not really about other people.
Of course fat is a cultural issue for both men and women, but the fact remains that what is considered socially acceptable for women is much narrower (pardon the pun) than what is currently considered OK for men.
Look at sitcoms like “King of Queens” or “According to Jim,” where the guy is chubby and the woman is slender. How often, if ever, do we see the reverse? (I don’t have cable, so there may be a lot of examples I’m unaware of.) On a personal level, I’ve certainly heard criticisms of my weight from guys who are no Brad Pitt in the physique department. As Jezebella pointed out, a guy can have a pretty serious beer gut before he gets snickered at in the bookstore, passed over for a job promotion, or has problems finding jeans that fit.
Also from the FaceBook discussion is the idea of what a fat woman should or shouldn’t wear. I don’t generally hear this about men. Maybe I’m mistaken (or maybe it’s because I live in the Midwest), but a chubby guy can go shirtless at the beach and no one bats an eye. But if a chubby girl dares to wear a snug top (or, oh the horror, a bikini) to the same beach, she won’t even find a place to set her towel down before she hears some snide remark.
This is not to say that fat men don’t suffer from stereotyping. In my sitcom example above, you could as easily argue that the chubby guy is usually cast as a kind of an idiot. But they *are* shown to be worthy of love and companionship, which is not the message you get from current depictions of larger women on TV, when they exist at all.
Fat is absolutely a feminist issue, in the sense that women should be addressing it collectively instead of letting it oppress us. I will not argue that fat men dont have their share of problems, but women experience the bulk of fat hatred BECAUSE they are rejecting their assigned roles: as objects of beauty and pleasure for men. I think a lot of the hatred out there is a backlash of frightened and confused people who despise the fact that fat people, espcecially women, are telling them off and living their lives as they wish, instead of sealing themselves off from the world until they have a more appropriate appearance.
In response to the discussion about fat men in television shows, this is a particularly favorite subject of mine because its patriarchy at its most horrific. My theory is based on the work of Susan Douglas, in that in a sitcom the humor arises from the unlikely situation of a woman dominating a man and when a “fat guy” has a “hot wife” its an extension of this joke – his fatness is a sign of his emasculation as well as a signal to women that their looks determine their place in the relationship. As a result of this difference in appearance, men watching at home can rest easy knowing that since he is not so fat and his wife is not so hot, he has the upper hand in his own relationship. Therefore, this BS is an insult to women on several levels.
Jezebella got my opinion on this topic across with #7 up there.
And something to consider as we explore this Brave New World of size acceptance is this: There most definitely WILL be a back lash. Because, while the Patriarchy has very real issues with any fat women (or any other type of “unfuckable” women, for that matter) the women who don’t kowtow to their “rules” infuriate them . I see a lot more hostility towards fat women who seem to be okay with their size or who aren’t acting suitably ashamed when in public. See also: lesbians, women who choose not to wear makeup, successful career women in male-dominated fields (a/k/a “ball-busting bitches), and women who happen to believe that “no” means “no.
The patriarchy dislikes women. And it HATES “uppity” women.
My two cents:
If Matt goes out and does something superfab for the world, everyone will focus on the size of his intellect and not the size of his waist.
If I go out and do the same thing 6 times over, few people will get past the way I look. Or worse they will express “surprise” or “delight” (really hate that last one) that someone like me has accomplished something. And even worse “she sacrificed her looks for the greater good”
Fat IS a feminist issue.
I want to respond to your question about whether we are alienating people by talking about fat as a feminist issue. My answer is: who cares? Just talking about fat acceptance at all is alienating to people who are fat-phobic. Talking about feminism is alienating to misogynists. Personally I couldn’t give a shit whether I’ve alienated someone by speaking my life, my opinions. Women are too often expected to be nicey-nice at all times, submissive, quiet, and friendly. You know, the hell with that. I’m tired of wondering whether some man is going to get his little feelings hurt when I speak my truth.
No one is claiming that men don’t suffer from fat-hatred. But I am claiming that feminism is an important part of self-regard and more importantly, survival, in this culture. Fat-hatred, body-hatred, is all wrapped up in patriarchal control of women’s lives. The “what about the menz” response is all-too-common when women speak of feminism, and I have no patience with it. Allies in fat-acceptance are welcome, but allies who refuse to hear the feminist point of view are really not allies at all.
I also noted that the BBW forums, singles, etc. were mentioned by Matt as benefits for women. I can’t call the fact that some men fetishize fat women, find us fuckable, much of a victory. My fuckability is the least of my concerns, frankly. I wouldn’t want to date a man who is only interested in my body, no matter what size I happen to be wearing.
^ ^ ^
That’s all, stainlifter, that’s all.
:D
Ten Cents from the Other side-
Au contraire, Fat may have been a feminist issue in the past but, increasingly, it is becoming simply an issue of fat.
Fat men may have been accorded some deference at one time and, perhaps, even a certain amount of respect. Fat bankers, lawyers, governors, and yes, even presidents were said to have ‘Presence’ even if it was mainly due to their bulk. Much like our current Presidential Dummy, William Howard Taft wasn’t believed to be the sharpest rock in the pile by most of the country when he took office. Yet can anyone here seriously believe that Mini Bush would have made it past, even the primaries, had he weighed as much? (WHT was 350 lbs. when he took office)
As I think we are all aware, those days are long over. And for those who would argue that a fat woman would not have even been afforded the opportunity Taft had , I agree. But it’s more likely that she wouldn’t have gotten in because she was a woman and not necessarily because she was fat. Just 20 years after Taft left office Eleanor Roosevelt was a force to be reckoned with not only in the White House but through out the entire country, AND she was no small woman.
I suppose my point is this; THESE DAYS, fat men are not be discriminated against any less that fat women. Discrimination against fat men is just-
A) A lot more subtle.
and
B) Talked about a lot less often.
I can tell you about subtle discrimination. I’ve walked into real estate offices asking about affordable rental availabilities in certain neighborhoods and had one agent tell me that there were no available units while another, literally simultaneously, was telling me that there were plenty of units available. I’ve had potential employers tell me I ’sounded different’ over the phone before they realized just what it was they were saying. I’ve been interviewed by police because some one (probably a neighbor) called in a tip saying that I bore a passing resemblance to this serial rapist or that sexual predator. Did I mention that I’m African American? (Yes, I’ve done the Driving While Black thing. Being frisked over the hood of your own car? Loads of fun. Everybody should try it.)
Did I also mention that I’ve weighed over 350 lbs for most of my adult life? With the possible exception of DWB every one of the experiences i’ve mentioned above could easily have occurred not because I am a black male but because I am a fat male. Indeed, there are times when I was sure I didn’t get a job because I was fat (nervous interviewers with spindly office furniture / Not ONE person in the office >20 BMI.) I’ve even had one interviewer ask me ’so what happened?’ after I mentioned that I used to play football in school. The REAL question obviously being ‘So how’d you let yourself get so fat’. Not being sure that I HADN’T gotten the job at that point I didn’t bother explaining to Mr. AssHat that I’d played nose tackle at 300 lbs IN school. So much for BMI.
My last point goes towards the portrayal of the fat male in media. I will agree that there are more representations of overweight males having relationships on TV and possible in the theaters. I would also point out that you can literally count those portrayals on one hand and what about these supposedly uplifting portrayals? I think someone else in mentioned that most of them aren’t all that complimentary. Well, if you look carefully you might notice that ALL of them are set as comedies. Not one, single, serious relationship. HOw did they even come about? According to the media the, single, fat male is a creature doomed to repeated and inevitable failure. Unless he burst forth from the forehead of Venus ALREADY married, the fat man is never shown to be SUCCESSFUL in the pursuit of courtship. He may have the job (as underling / side kick / comic relief) but he NEVER gets the girl or any OTHER girl for that matter unless, of course, there’s something ‘wrong’ with her TOO. Subtle but, none the less, present.
Finally, I guess I’d like to get up on the hypocrite box and say; Really. What difference does it make? The whole issue of who suffers more discriminated than whom smacks of divide and conquer to me. Only we are doing the dividing ourselves. Especially damaging when you consider that so many people in the fat community are already so riddled with self loathing that when the Obesity Police flail away with the cat-o-nines of hate, denigration, and derision, all they can say is ‘I know. It’s my fault. I’ll try harder next time.’ Maybe it’s time to consider the fact the fat HAS NO GENDER.
We’re Here. We’re FAT. Get over it.
Jezebella starts with the premise that “There’s no SOLID MEDICAL EVIDENCE that being overweight is necessarily bad for you.” I’m not going to engage in this debate, which at times reminds me of big tobacco denying any evidence that cigarettes harm your health, general conspiracy theories about the government lying to us, and the pro-choice/pro-life debate (people mostly just talking past each other)
I just want to comment on a couple of specific points:
“4. Genetics have at least as much to do with one’s weight as one’s diet and exercise habits. Expecting women to spend all of their time and energy trying to conform to an arbitrary cultural beauty standard is BAD FOR WOMEN. Like other beauty myths, the beauty and diet industry preys on women’s inculcated insecurities about our fuckability. It costs us time, money, and self-esteem. It weakens us.”
I hate to pick on the first sentence, when I agree with the rest of this paragraph, but mathematically, a person’s current weight, calories consumed, and calories expended are the *only* factors that need to be consulted to determine a person’s current weight. Genetics do not change the scientific laws that say that 3500 calories equal a pound. Genetics do not change how many minutes and at what intensity a 150 lb woman needs to run to burn 3500 calories. Genetics do change where we store fat on our bodies, and where we store fat can affect our health, but that’s a different issue than the pounds we weigh.
I consider myself a feminist and also a fan of civil rights. I hate to see rants about how fat people are disgusting and gross because I think all people should be treated with respect. But I do see fat as a health issue. I believe the doctors and scientists who say that being overweight puts me at a higher risk for high blood pressure, diabetes, and other diseases. My own experience has been that when I am in a healthy BMI range, so are my belly-measurement and blood pressure. Twice in my life I have been 10-25 lbs above my healthy BMI range and both times, my belly fat and blood pressure also rose into the unhealthy range. To the extent that genetics play a role in my health, I am one of the unfortunate people for whom extra fat collects around my belly. I think I look fine, but I want to be healthy, and I know that the extra belly fat I carry around when I am overweight is putting my health at risk. But my genes haven’t made me either fat or skinny; they have just determined what happens to my body when I gain/lose weight. I don’t blame my genes when I don’t move around enough to burn off the calories I am eating.
Next:
“5. The more time we spend worrying about our weight, the less happy and productive we are. A woman who spends two hours at the gym every day will never finish her dissertation and get a tenure-track job, nor will she make partner at a law firm, nor will she have time to do things that make HER happy, whether that is knitting, political action, or doing yoga.”
This time, I agree with the first sentence but don’t see how it relates to the rest. I agree that worrying doesn’t tend to make people happy or productive. But I think several issues are being conflated here: worry and exercise, and spending two hours a day at the gym and staying in shape. (1) Worrying is not exercising. (2) You don’t need to spend two hours a day at the gym to stay in shape.
Women can stay in shape and still finish their dissertations and make partner at their firms. Personally, I think you could spend two hours a day at the gym and still finish a dissertation or make partner. Most people in the US watch more than two hours of TV a day and they still manage to live their lives and pursue their goals. Many bloggers seem to put a couple of hours a day into their blogs; that time could be spent exercising instead of sitting around worrying about how fat/skinny they are. You can find time for exercise and find ways to stay in shape and also have a career and a life. It’s not a choice: be skinny or make partner.
Moreover, exercising adds a positive health benefit to my life that worrying does not. I don’t know anyone among my female friends and family who has been hindered in her career by staying in shape. I have a friend who clerked for US Supreme Court Justice Ginsburg, a friend finishing her PhD at Stanford in Biochemistry, and a sister who is Yale/Berkeley educated in architecture. None are overweight, but all have managed to find success in their careers and personal lives. They didn’t have to spend two hours a day at the gym or worry obsessively in order to stay in good physical shape. Staying in shape didn’t stop any of them from pursuing their goals.
I’m pretty sure that staying in good physical shape through exercise has helped me to reduce stress at work, sleep better at night, and other benefits, along with keeping my weight and blood pressure down.
So why does point #5 suggest that hitting the gym is bad? Why is staying in good physical shape pitted against having career goals? Why are the health benefits of staying in shape treated like a myth?
Forgot to include a few links. Jezebella says being overweight is culturally determined, that the definition of “overweight” changes, and that being overweight is not linked to health problems. When I say “overweight,” I am referring to the BMI scale, and other indicators of health like belly fat measurement. My understanding is that the BMI scale is one of the current tools that doctors and scientists have developed to judge one’s health based on statistics about disease and objective symptoms/risk factors for disease.
http://win.niddk.nih.gov/statistics/index.htm
In other words, I’m not talking about random bloggers who call Scarlett Johansson fat because of Hollywood’s f-ed up standards of fat and beauty.
I’d like to add that while I definitely think fat is a feminised, and therefore a feminist, issue in western culture, this debate–particularly the “who suffers more” bits of it–really illustrates the extent to which patriarchy is not good for anybody. Do women get a tougher deal under it? I think so. But the position of the oppressor–especially the “I don’t want to be the oppressor, I didn’t ask for these privileges, how the hell did this happen?” oppressor–while conveying lots of handy-dandy privileges, is still basically a bad one: it means always fearing that your privileges are threatened, never feeling real trust because everyone around you who’s not the oppressor has been constructed as the enemy, and, in many cases, developing some very unfortunate character traits.
So: fat is a feminist issue, sure. Does that mean it’s not concerned with men? Does that mean discussing the issue is in some way bad for men? Let’s not be silly. When things get more equal, men win too–not more privileges, which, let’s get serious, relatively few middle-class white men need, but a nice comibination of trust, understanding, and a beautiful freedom from the pressures of constantly being on top. When we talk about the feminisation of fat, this can lead nowhere but good for men who are also fat. Really. I promise.
I don’t think fat is a feminist issue. I think we’re doing ourselves, as humans, a disservice by thinking that women are more “oppressed” when it comes to the fat issue. I’ve mentioned before that my husband is a big guy. Random people refer to my husband as “Big guy” all the time. I’m fat too and never once has anyone ever said, “Big girl” to me. It’s not socially acceptable for anyone to be fat, but it IS socially acceptable for a man’s weight to be commented on.
I disagree with the poster Cat above who stated that this kind of discussion will be good for men too. It won’t. It’s alienating.
“So why does point #5 suggest that hitting the gym is bad? Why is staying in good physical shape pitted against having career goals? Why are the health benefits of staying in shape treated like a myth?”
I agree wholeheartedly with this statement (along with the whole post). I work in a corporation where many of the higher ups are women, and these women jog during their lunch hours, and go to the gym. I DO agree that fat is a feminist issue; absolutely. However it seems to me that feminisim comes with so many “rules” particularly when it comes to size acceptance. An example of this is a discussion about Jamie Lee Curtis’s view about weight. When I stated that I could relate (not necessarily agree, mind you) to what she was saying because of the fact that MY extra weight was causing ME health problems, it seemed to spark a misunderstanding stating that I was okay with the bad attitudes pointed at overweight people and that I felt that fat women should hang their heads (not exact, I know;just summarizing) in shame. Because this is such a hot button issue, it seems to me (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong) that anyone, male or female posting with a different outlook (even when that outlook is presented with an open mind and respect) is met with vehement rebuttles stating how wrong they are for having that opinion (also see the discussion about Good Luck Chuck; prime example of this) and even posting research as to why the person’s OPINION is wrong. It we are to ever get ahead in the battle for SA, maybe we should be more open to the experiences of other people and realize that no two bodies are the same, even if those tow bodies have the same struggle.
I still think fat is a feminist issue, and whyme63 pretty much summed up why. As I said before, I think the question of who has it “worse,” women or men, is sort of beside the point. Or, I will just say “what Cat said” so I don’t embark on one of my usual way-too-long rambles.
Lisa, I would argue that people refer to your husband as “big guy” because his fatness (while I’m sure considered a negative by some or many) is not considered such a serious, all-consuming issue as it might be for a woman, to where it is considered impolite even to mention it because being fat is supposed to be such a catastrophe for a woman. At the same time I get your outrage that random people feel they have the right to comment on and judge his body. It’s complicated.
If anyone is interested, for an alternate presentation of what is known about fat and health, check out kateharding.net and click on “Don’t you realize fat is unhealthy?” at the top. I know this is a hotly contested issue but I think Kate has provided a really interesting summary of research indicating that fat may not be bad for your health. This is not a viewpoint you will get in most mainstream outlets, so it might be worth checking out. I would also add that if you experience high blood pressure when you are over your normal weight, it might be for just that reason–because you are over YOUR normal weight, or the weight that is right for your body. For some people that weight is lower and for others it might be higher. Anyway, just another viewpoint.
Regarding time to exercise… I think the implicit belief that just because there is mathematically an “extra” hour in your day when you are not eating, sleeping, grooming, or working, then you should spend it at the gym, is just an extension of the ’80s “superwoman” thing. I think the real problem is the workaholism in our society. Notice you constantly hear people lecturing others about how there is no excuse not to exercise–if you have an hour in the day when you are, god forbid, enjoying yourself, then you should be using it to work out. But when it comes to getting enough sleep–which is also very important to your health–nobody seems as eager to encourage people to give up kids’ activities, work hours, exercise, or housekeeping to do it. Because the most virtuous way you can spend your time in our society is working, working, working (or working out, which also counts as work and is therefore acceptable) every waking minute. OK, that’s an off-topic rant so I will shut up now (finally). But I think the belief you should be able to “do it all” also relates to both fat and feminism.
I have to agree that the “superwoman” issue does bother me too, from a feminist POV. I really don’t want to suggest that we should all be on some kind of treadmill where all we do is eat, sleep, workout, do chores, etc, etc. What a boring life that would be. But I am reminded of the last comment I wanted to make about point #5:
“nor will she have time to do things that make HER happy, whether that is knitting, political action, or doing yoga.”
I love to knit! I love to draw! I also love to walk/jog at our local park. I love to get together with friends and play soccer. I believe that there are even people for whom hitting the gym makes them happy.
So in order to knit, draw, work, study, sleep(!) and get exercise, I go ahead and ignore housework and try to cut back on tv. TV is just a complete fracking waste of time. I’m not giving up knitting or my career in order to play soccer. I’m not giving up time with my boyfriend in order to go walking at the park. I am incorporating healthy activity into the parts of my life I like doing and trying to give up the useless, wasted parts of my day that do nothing for me or the rest of the world. I would never tell someone to give up something really valuable like time with their family in order to exercise, but I also truly believe that staying in shape is a great way to keep up your energy to run after your kids (and toddler-like-husbands/boyfriends).
Give up TV. It just sucks out your soul one half hour at a time and it’s less restful for your body than sleeping!
Oh, yeah: Thanks, Tara!
Being a feminist doesn’t mean you have to be female.
And though it is hard for me to imagine women who are not feminist, I was shocked to see the answer
to the question: “how many women consider themselves to be feminist?” on a game show the other day. The answer was like 35%! Sorry for the side track.
While fat is a feminist issue, it is also a human issue. Men more and more are feeling “the hate” just as women do. We do need to address it collectively and not discount fat mens experiences.
The men I work with worry about their bodies and fat just as much as the women do.
They are also engaging in the same diet and exercise talk and conformity as the women are.
To say that fat men have it easier I think is a big mistake, the lines are blurring.
I have gone to Kate Harding’s website before, but I went ahead and read it again. Her links go to other bloggers (not scientific research) who in turn have links that are broken. She also links to her own previous posts. I am actually interested in seeing the research that says overweight people live longer than underweight or “normal” weight people. The closest I’ve seen was a reference to a study (but not the study itself) that said overweight people do better after surgery. That is a much narrower category than all people, and I still haven’t seen the study itself.
I agree that yo-you dieting is bad for you and may very well f-up your immune system. No dispute on that point. But I believe it’s healthier still to maintain a healthy weight.
Healthy feminist,
No problem. To back up your point about enjoying excercise, I get up every morning and powerwalk a loop around my neighborhood. I LOVE it. The morning air wakes me up in a BIG way. Also….
“The men I work with worry about their bodies and fat just as much as the women do.
They are also engaging in the same diet and exercise talk and conformity as the women are.”
This is also a great point, and it’s no longer just gay men, either. The straight guys are just as worried about their “figures” as the ladies. My best friend is a heterosexual guy; he’s VERY upset over the weight he’s gained over the past few months. He looks great to me, but apparantly he doesn’t agree.
Apparently none of the posters know about the gay subcommunity known as ‘bears’ (fat men) and their admirers. Not that it has much to do with this fascinating discussion, I thought I would merely point it out.
I write a plus-size positive blog, I sell plus-size contemporary and vintage clothing, and I love my body. I am tall, busty, and big. (One does wish one’s feet were not 11WW so shoe shopping was easier, but my creamy decolletage more than makes up for it.) I do believe that fat is a feminist issue, and it is a humanist issue. Women are still powerless in this society in many ways, and seek to gain social acceptance by being non-threateningly attractive (slim, small, high-voiced–I am none of those things).
However, there is now pressure on men to conform to an ever-retreating ideal of perfection as well. When I see the upper arms and collarbones of most of today’s actresses, I shudder. I rarely watch television: it rots the brain, dahlings. Read a book instead.
AYIYI!! Callling fat a feminist issue isn’t about “who’s the most oppressed”!! It’s about understanding the gender difference between fat women’s lives and fat men’s lives. It’s not a freakin competition, y’all! It is an absolute fact that women and men live different lives and with different expectations under patriarchy, and anybody unwilling to recognize that needs a big fat clue stick. Ahem. Fat is a feminist issue, and a human rights issue, and a health issue, and a race issue. It’s ALL of these. I do not claim it is ONLY a feminist issue.
Also, healthy feminist, many of us would rather spend two hours a day doing something interesting than being bored at the gym. Bully for you if you love going to the gym. I find it tedious; thirty minutes is about all I can stand on the elliptical before I want to gouge my eyes out for the sheer entertainment value. But my own exercise habits are irrelevant, so please don’t waste your time offering me exercise advice.
The math (calories – energy = weight) is merely one element of the equation. Sure, there’s the math involved, but your weight is affected by more than just food in/energy out. It’s the reason that diets don’t work in the long run.
Further, BMI is merely the latest blunt instrument developed by medicine to try and assess health. It’s already been shifted at least once. Bodybuilders, for example, end up in the “obese” category based on their BMI because muscle is so heavy. It’s a tool but it’s not gospel.
Just to be clear, I never claimed to be one of the people who enjoys the gym. I merely said there are such people. Personally, I like getting outdoors. And I’m not offering Jezebella any exercise advice. I am posing some questions, such as why Jezebella argues that spending time at the gym means a woman won’t make partner or finish her thesis. The only advice I offered (and it’s for anyone who wants it, and ignore it if you don’t) is to cut back on tv. TV is crap.
I know that there is a psychological component to long term weight loss/maintenance, but I stand by my comments about the math. We’ll just have to agree to disagree. I have subscribed to the math explanation since the chair of my department in college explained it that way. I’m still a math/science person at heart.
I agree BMI is a tool and is best used in conjunction with other tools. It works for me. If I were a bodybuilder, I would feel free to focus more on other tools.
For anyone who would like to read more about studies that reflect different views than the media does, I would recommend reading Rethinking Thin, by Gina Colata or The Obesity Myth, by Paul Campos. Both reference research quite extensively and, no doubt, with their references, you can actually look up the original published articles.
I agree that staying as fit as possible is obviously an important thing, but I disagree with the idea that fit = thin. This means different things for different people with different ability levels. I will probably never see the underside of 200 again, but I can still workout on a daily basis with things that I enjoy doing. I hate going to a gym. I feel out of place and self-concious. I don’t know how to use the machines and all the classes seem to be focused on people who are more coordinated than I am. I imagine that many fat women feel similarly.
HFWLTE, it is kind of hard to find original research on anyone’s web site since you have to pay to access scientific journals… I think the study you refer to, showing that people in the overweight category live longer, was done by somebody named Katherine Flegal and published in JAMA (I think?) but I personally have never read it because I’m not in school anymore so I would have to pay quite a lot to access journals online, or find another way of getting hold of the article, and I guess I’m just too lazy. Anyway, this study’s conclusions are said to relate directly to longevity of people in various weight categories and it’s not narrowly defined like the study you mentioned discussing survival after surgery.
On the whole I think your characterization of her web site is very unfair. She may link to other bloggers and her own former entries, but the full references to the original research are typically provided in either her entry or the entry she links to (I’m assuming the logic goes, if someone else already posted their thoughts on a given study and she didn’t have anything to add… or if she already blogged on it 6 months ago… why clog up the internet being redundant or paraphrasing someone else’s thoughts in your own words. You would just link).
So it is generally up to the reader to go to the library or an online journal database if you have access to one, and track down those studies, because as I’m sure you know, they are not usually available for free on the internet. But the references ARE there (or enough info to figure out which references are meant… if you do have access to a journal database, the author, date, and keywords should be enough to find them) and I think it is pretty misleading to imply that they aren’t.
She has a link under “Notes from the Fatosphere” right now that links to a Paul Campos editorial giving his thoughts on the Flegal study. Impartial, no, but it might at least give some context on what the study says and what its “proponents” and “opponents” think about it without having to dig up the actual article.
Also there are lots of people (though I don’t seem to be one of them) who can eat diet rations and not lose… for some people it might be as simple as the math you cite, but for others it is not.
On a personal note, I enjoy running and generally do it 4 times a week, which sort of becomes “my time for me” (which is good) but prevents me from getting home in the evening until 9:00 or later (which is bad but for now I’m putting up with it). So I don’t really view the gym as wasted time per se, particularly for people who enjoy it and find it relaxing; I just think it’s dangerous when “taking care of yourself” i.e. maintaining a perfectly thin, toned, tan, waxed, white-toothed, plucked appearance starts to be viewed as something that women should prioritize for its own sake.
When you say the “media,” are you referring to a specific news story from the NY Times or CNN or some other paper? Or the government agencies that put out information based on research about obesity? I would check out these:
The American Medical Association
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/11759.html
The National Institutes of Health/US Department of Health and Human Services
http://www2.niddk.nih.gov/Research/ScientificAreas/Obesity/ClinicalStudies/OPAT.htm
http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publications/health_risks.htm
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/contributing_factors.htm
Sorry, Spins beat me to it and made many of the same points I was trying to make.
I don’t think *any* particular equation fits everyone in terms of food intake, exercise, blood pressure, etc. There are ranges of what is healthy, and even that will vary from person to person.
Yes, there is the one pound = 3500 calories factoid, and I’m not saying that this is inaccurate by any means. But there are other variable in play. An example: I remember reading a summary of an obesity study (I think in the NYT or National Geo., I’ll have to look for it later), where the researchers calculated what one of the study participants should eat to maintain her current weight. It was a lot more than she was actually eating prior to the study, so of course she gained weight, and they accused her of sneaking food. Granted that it’s one example, but I think it’s relavent in the current discussion, because applying these hard-and-fast rules to individuals tends to result in nothing but failure and shaming.
Getting back to the feminist side of the issue: It’s not productive to argue over who gets the most victimized, but neither is it useful to men or women to deny the role cultural misogyny plays in fat hatred for both groups. The truth is that women are held to a different standard, that what is considered healthy and/or average for men is still considered fat for women, and that women’s ability to derive a healthy self-image (which often translates into helping maintain a healthy mind and body) is constantly battered by the expectations of a culture that still often objectifies women. Add to this the idea that many fat men appear to be treated as less “masculine” (by default more feminine,) then we can see where the tyranny women experience spills over to hurt men, too.
That does not mean that it’s OK to be hurtful to fat men, but rather that recognizing the damage done to women by these misogynistic standards would help fat men as well — recognition of equal rights helps everyone.
And you can be a man and be a feminist too, incidentally.
My question above was a clarification question for Spins.
spacedcowgirl, I’m really not trying to turn this into some kind of flame war. I found links that anyone can follow to read about obesity research. I followed multiple links from the Kate Harding website, but hit broken news links and I am still willing to read more of what is available. The study about yo-yo dieting and immune function was interesting.
See the CDC link; it specifically addresses the math I was talking about and also all of the other complicating factors.
I don’t think I was unfair to post specific questions about Jezebella’s points. She has not chosen to answer why she says going to the gym stops women from excelling in their careers.
Mizshrew, it sounds like the researchers made a mistake with the other side of the calculation: how many calories the woman was burning. The math doesn’t do itself and people can misreport and mistake the amount of food consumed or the amount of exercise done.
And, hey. I’m not trying to shame anyone into losing weight, nor do I think that works.
I also understand that knowing the math doesn’t necessarily make it easy to lose weight.
Back on the feminist issue, I’d like to hear from men as to whether they feel alienated if feminism is introduced. I’d like to see a world where the word “feminist” doesn’t scare men or women and we can all embrace equality.
But the problem is, and I agree with you that this should not become all about this issue so I’m going to shut up after this even if your response is a brilliant post that makes me look like an idiot (perhaps not hard to do), whether or not something is linkable from Kate’s web site is not really the issue. The Flegal study is the one that’s in the news right now, and if you want to get up to speed on why people are discussing its results in terms of “overweight people appear to live longer,” I would suggest finding and reading it and maybe reading some criticism of it. This study and other major studies like it exist, Kate and Paul Campos and Gina Kolata are not making them up. Sometimes the researchers expected to find a mortality increase from increased weight and were surprised to find that they did not. These are not fringe studies.
And saying you’re a “math/science person at heart” implies that the math is 100% right but everyone else just prefers to look at it some squishy, inaccurate way. What some are saying is that that math doesn’t seem to work for a lot of people… you can estimate your BMR based on the best available information, carefully track the calories you take in and expend, and not gain or lose at anything like the predicted rate based solely on “calories in/calories out.” I’m an engineer and I like to think that I’m a “math/science person at heart” too, incidentally.
Can you provide me with a link? I am not unwilling to read. I have provided a number of links and have followed links that are provided. I prefer to respond to your own/Jezebella’s/Kate Harding’s specific posts because there is a HUGE amount of information out there and going off to search and read all of it is beyond the time I am willing to devote to this.
One of Jezebella’s statements is that “There’s no SOLID MEDICAL EVIDENCE that being overweight is necessarily bad for you.” It’s hard to respond to that. I can provide links to the NIH, the CDC, the AMA, as I have done, indicating numerous reliable sites that refer to the obesity research that is out there. But it makes the discussion a lot more coherent to make it about specifics.
Specifics, like the yo-yo dieting study. I followed the link. I read. Give me just a little bit more and I promise to give it a fair read. And if you wouldn’t mind looking at my links, since I took the time to provide them, I’d appreciate it.
“What some are saying is that that math doesn’t seem to work for a lot of people…”
I have completely conceded this. I said, I believe the math, but I understand that applying it to one’s own life can be difficult. I’m not saying the math is a diet/exercise plan that most people can implement. There are tons of those out there.
Since you’re an engineer, I’ll appeal to your science side: the math here is probably applied as well in real life as in a high school physics class experiment where we pretended to use massless, frictionless pulleys because we didn’t know enough at the beginning to take every real life detail into account. We just didn’t have the data.
Okay, I went and searched and found a link myself:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/293/15/1861
I’m not done reading, but the conclusion says:
“Underweight and obesity, particularly higher levels of obesity, were associated with increased mortality relative to the normal weight category.”
This may just be me being an idiot, but I am not seeing where you posted this CDC link anywhere. I see an NIH link about BMI but that’s the only one I can find. Help!
I can’t link to the study I am referring to because I don’t think it’s available for free, and am not sure how to find it if it is. Paul Campos has a number of editorials on weight-related studies including this one that you can read at the Rocky Mountain News site if you want to. Again, not unbiased, but at least it’s a sketch of the articles’ contents that you can agree or disagree with as you see fit. Or google “Katherine Flegal” to see some interviews and such with the study author.
So I guess the point people are making is that obesity is bad but being overweight might not be? Okay. I’m willing to keep reading and taking in new information. I guess I’ve been lumping them together because I haven’t heard anyone else distinguish the two.
Okay, except for part of Jezebella’s post which does talk about slightly overweight people versus the very obese. Oops. Sorry for that part! But that’s why I’ve been trying really hard to post specific comments and specific responses rather than getting into a vague discussion about “fat,” undefined. And now that I’ve found the study, I get the distinction!
The CDC link is there, but here it is again:
http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/contributing_factors.htm
It has the math, and it also talks about other contributing factors. And I’ll stop repeating myself. Now.
But, see, I think I had sort of a legit reason to be confused. Jezebella talks about spending two hours a day at the gym instead of doing other, more productive, or at least more fun, activities. No one who is just “slightly overweight” needs to spend two hours every day at the gym. So…
Okay, just one more point on the CDC/math. The point is, factors like socioeconomic status may affect your weight. But they affect it through the math; either you take in more calories or you expend fewer calories or both because of your socioeconomic status. Right? I mean, you can agree that the math is right, but still think other factors contribute.
I actually think we’re all on the same page about this one and always have been, but if we’re not, they I refer again to the “agree to disagree” idea. :)
Interesting stuff from the JAMA study: (How much is too long to quote?)
“We did not examine other health problems caused by obesity. A recent population-based study has found that overweight and obesity have a strong and deleterious impact on important components of health status, including morbidity, disability, and quality of life, and this impact is disproportionately borne by younger adults.40 Nor did we examine cause-specific mortality. Overweight and obesity may be more strongly associated with cardiovascular mortality than with total mortality.41
The differences between NHANES I and the later surveys suggest that the association of obesity with total mortality may have decreased over time, perhaps because of improvements in public health or medical care for obesity-related conditions. However, such speculation should be tempered by the awareness that these differences between surveys may simply represent chance variation and that small differences in relative risk translate into large differences in the numbers of deaths.”
So being overweight may not make you die earlier, but there is evidence that being overweight (or obese) will deleteriously affect your quality of life.
So if everyone likes the JAMA study, can we agree that there is medical evidence that being overweight has a strong and deleterious impact on your health–measured by rates of disease (morbidity) and quality of life?
The full text is here:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/293/15/1861
Also see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morbidity
Thanks for the discussion, everyone! I appreciate a learning experience.
HFWLTE, I read the article awhile ago, and will try to find it tonight. But I think it was in a closed research environment, so they would have had all the data they needed for calories in/calories out. I might be misremembering though, so I’ll come back and re-post if I can find the article.
Thanks! I appreciate it. I’d like to read the study.
Hi
It seems this topic will never die out in Fat Acceptance, as if Fat Men will forever be honorary members of the community, unless they are also Fat Admirers who seem to be guaranteed a in space in the Fat Acceptance Community.
I think that people that say that being a Fat Man is more acceptable then being a Fat Woman are not asking the real question. I think that the difference in the experiences of Fat Men and Fat Women is due to the fact that it is more acceptable to question, comment on and confront Women than Men. So face to face Fat Men may get off easier, but in the case of indirect or second hand communicate both genders are considered Fat Slobs by the Fat-o-phobic people.
In “Australia which has plenty of Fat hate, the following Powerpoint presentation is something deemed acceptable to be distributed in one of their Universities:
http://arts.anu.edu.au/History/forth/hist2003/HIST2003%20-%2012%20-%20Fat,%20Gender,%20and%20Transgression.ppt
I would not like to be a Fat Guy in that class!.
Mizshrew
How narrow the acceptability of Women’s Bodies is absolutely meaningless to how a Fat Man or Boy feels about how he is treated because of his Fat.
Sitcoms are make-believe and also are meaningless, most of the Fat Characters are still made to look like idiots or wimps.
Hi Lisa
I agree with you about this kind of talk being kind of harmful for Fat Men. I have been a Fat Male all of my life and do not appreciate someone discounting the experiences that I have had because of my sex.
William
Hi Jezebella
I would have more faith in “Fat is a feminist Issue” conversations if they did not seem to center around gauging how much easier Fat Men’s lot in life is than Fat Women’s. It seems that is the only reason the topic of Fat Men is even injected into the conversation.
William
I never said fat mens’ lot in life was easier than fat womens’. FEMINISM IS NOT ABOUT MEN. This conversation is not about men. Not everything is about men, you know. I know that’s hard to swallow for some guys. Feminism is about women, and the patriarchy which oppresses us. (btw, “patriarchy” does not mean “all men”. It refers to a culture-wide system, not individuals, though men do reap the benefits of patriarchy).
I will say this: under patriarchy, women are more oppressed than men. This is a radical feminist viewpoint and it applies to all people, fat, thin, or in-between. Like it or lump it, your choice.
As for this:
“She has not chosen to answer why she says going to the gym stops women from excelling in their careers.”
I’m not saying that. What I *am* saying is that, if I spent the time it would take to be an “acceptable” size 8, or even an average size 12, I’d be chopping vegetables and working out every waking hour of the day. It is simply not going to happen for me unless I make it my first, last, and only priority. I would be too busy and exhausted to enjoy life. I refuse to do this. Life is more than going to work, sleeping, and working the rest of the day at being thin enough to please the patriarchy. Or it should be.
I pity people who give up everything else in their lives to achieve what is ultimately an unattainable goal. Why unattainable? Because even if a woman is “thin enough,” then something else will be wrong. Her boobs will be too big or too small, her hair too long or too short, or she might have wrinkles, or wear the wrong shoes, or be too smart or too stupid. Perfection is a moving target. Women’s bodies are constantly policed in patriarchy, and fat is only one component of that.
Alas, I am too lazy to hunt down citations, but this is my argument regarding medical data on obesity: excess weight is often a side effect of poor health and diet. It is not a cause, it’s an effect. Sure, obese people die a little younger, but why? Is it because they’re fat, or because they have high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, or eat unhealthy diets (all of which can be true of thin people)? Is it because they are depressed by society’s hatred of fat, because long-term depression yields lower life expectancy. And so forth.
Has anyone teased out the data to determine whether the obesity causes the illnesses, or the illnesses cause the obesity? I cannot find that the answer is yes. Positive correlation does not necessarily equal cause-and-effect when other factors aren’t taken into account.
Wow. See, i’m one of those horrible evil people who doesn’t consider myself a Feminist. There are a great many points where i do agree with most Feminists, but there are some points where i think they might be debatable (and no, i’m not going to list or get into them). However, my only experience is as a white female, so i cannot speak from any other perspective.
No matter how bad it gets for me, i’m sure that there’s someone out there who’s going through worse. I refuse to see life as something where i am oppressed, held back and underpaid. Then again, i don’t have much in the way of ambition – i’m okay sitting on a help desk, doing tech support. I’m not trying to work my way up in a work environment that doesn’t allow people to wear jeans to work.
My main problem with saying that “fat is a feminist issue” is that as a single solitary statement, left unexplained, it is inherently exclusionary. So as a single, solitary statement, i do not agree with it. I would say that fat is one of many feminist issues, and that it is also a men’s issue as well – overall, it is something that anyone who is fat (regardless of race or orientation) has to deal with. Hell, considering how often the fear of fat is held over the heads of our skinny brothers and sisters, i’d say it’s an Everyone Issue.
Any sort of “-ism” is going to affect more than just the people against whom it is being held.
Lindsay, the statement wasn’t left “unexplained.” Read the two posts here and mine (linked above) to see explanations.
Secondly, feminism isn’t about “seeing life as being underpaid, oppressed, and held back.” If you believe that women are human, too, and should be treated as such, then you are a feminist. That’s the bottom line.
Fat is not JUST a feminist issue; I never said that. I also never said that fat is the ONLY feminist issue. It is one of many things that can be understood when viewed through feminism.
I would agree, and refer you to Sarah Bunting’s excellent essay making this very point. It’s called Yes, You Are.
Jezebella, the statement has indeed been well explained here. I was stating that when it is not clarified, and left as it’s own thing, it is exclusionary. I have seen it left as its own thing more than once – not here, and not in this discussion, to be sure.
What i am saying is that when people do NOT give that caveat, i do not agree with it. When it is explained, i have no problem with it.
I believe that all people are human, and deserve to be treated as such – that race, gender, size and orientation are invalid excuses for treating anyone without respect. If that makes me a feminist in your eyes, then i am okay with that.
I have known some people who used feminism as a very thinly veiled excuse to indulge in some of the foulest forms of “reverse” discrimination and hatred towards men.
Indeed, one of these people was my mother, and her indoctrination into the world of Men Are All That Is Evil is something that has taken me many years to overcome. As such, i am not personally comfortable with the feminist label… but i do try to not let the feelings about the label affect my feelings about the actual underlying issues. Sometimes it works better than others. My apologies if i was unclear or if i have offended.
About a year ago, The Happy Feminist posted a really terrific Feminism 101 page: http://happyfeminist.typepad.com/happyfeminist/2006/01/feminism_is_not.html, if anyone’s interested in checking out what many notable feminist bloggers agree is the best working definition of feminism.
Re-reading it again made me think how nice it would be to put together something similiar for the fatosphere (hint! hint!). HGWLTE may be very well intentioned/interested in learning, but it isn’t really the responsibility of anyone here to stop the thread and educate her in fat activism/HAES 101.
HGWLTE, I know this may not seem like a big deal to you, but it is common on fat boards for someone to pop onto a thread billing themselves as someone who ‘loves exercise’ and demand definitive scientific prove that fat people can be healthy. Usually, the presumption is that we won’t be able to provide it, and should therefore accept that we are wrong. There is also usually a presumption that no one has ever really challenged us from quite this angle, which, I assure you, is far from the case.
I remember, from grade school, that England has Parliament because of the Magna Carta, but I really don’t remember what the Magna Carta says. That doesn’t mean that if someone asks me what the Magna Carta says and I can’t tell them, there is no English Parliament.
It’s possible you totally mean well, but I just want to let you know that (speaking as someone who has read this type of discussion for a long time), your approach smells condescending. Even your handle sounds a little aggressive, as if you were some kind of health missionary entering a den of unenlightened sloth.
When you’re dealing with a group of people that gets bullied, made fun of and ridiculed a lot, it’s good manners to be a little careful about how you present yourself.
Thanks, and best,
MG
PS – so when are you writing the HAES 101, Mo and Kate?? :-)
I was raised by a man with some pretty strong feminist ideals who taught me that men are “no good” and anything that would even attract one (i.e. wearing makeup, painting my nails) should be my very last priority. This helped me quite a bit because I have grown into an independant, strong, confident woman. I dress for me, get my hair done for me, and wear perfume for ME. However, in many ways it has hurt; I have some serious trust issues (that I’m working on) concerning men. My father taught me all about the patriarchy and it’s way of keeping women “in their place”. It really sucks because as someone trying to reinstate herself into the dating world I am all too aware of the scrutiny we’re under. Jezebella is absolutely right; we will never be thin enough, and if we are, there’s always something “wrong” with how we look. It’s very overwhelming and sometimes makes me want to be single and unattached for the rest of my life.
I (heart) Jezebella. You say everything I try to articulate, in a much more concise and understandable way.
Also, William, I appreciate your perspective and totally agree with you that fat discrimination is a serious and growing issue for both genders, but you have either missed (which frankly would be easy considering the kudzu on this thread that I have also been guilty of contributing to) or are ignoring that many of us have said that in our opinion, the discussion of fat as a feminist issue is specifically NOT about who “has it worse,” women or men. That is beside the point. I agree with Jezebella that body size and people’s attitudes toward it are one of many things that can be understood by viewing through the perspective of feminism. The belief that women should work full-time doing whatever is needed to become “acceptable” appearance-wise is a tool of the patriarchy (as defined by Jezebella) or, if you prefer, mainstream society, that hinders women from determining their own direction in life and from pursuing their own goals and achievements; and weight is only one component of that. But it is a big component.
mo, I was just going to link that Tomato Nation essay so I’m really glad you did it already because now I don’t have to dig it up. Everyone should read it. It is excellent IMO.
Mo Pie – I’d never seen that “Yes, You Are” essay before – it’s outstanding! URL nabbed & blogged.
props.
There is now a whole blog dedicated to Feminism 101: http://finallyfeminism101.blogspot.com
It would serve as an excellent model for anyone with the time and inclination to produce a Fat Activism 101 resource.
William, if you look at my posts, I think I make it clear that I didn’t think it was right to treat fat men poorly, and that any discussion of fat and feminism should not discount the problems that fat men face. I also specifically mentioned that fat male characters in sitcoms are often written as idiots.
If I was not adequately clear, I apologize. It is not my intention to suggest that it is OK for fat men to suffer, or that women’s position within the culture negates your experience as a fat man. But this is a discussion of fat as a feminist issue, and in that context, exploration of the different ways in which men and women are treated is valid and worthwhile, I think, both from a cultural perspective and as a way to move forward.
Just read the link Mo posted (“Yes You Are”) and I have to say that I LOVED it. I agreed with every single word.
This thread might be dead, but I’d like to add something anyway.
It really hurts my heart to see women talk about themselves in the terms of “If you’re a woman and you’re not perfect you’re considered nothing.” Sez who?
Women are more objectified than men. I’m not sure who would argue that’s not true. Hence, the anti-fat hysteria impacts on women in a more direct way. If we’re suppose to be objects, commodities if you will, then it behooves us to try to be the most valuable commodity we can be. So you’re not considered “nothing” if you’re imperfect, were that true there wouldn’t be one single fat or chubby person with friends, lovers, spouses, ect. No, it’s that you’re considered a less valuable commodity. And in a societal set-up where we flat out judge people according to this type of value (good looks, money, the biggest, bestest car/i-phone/motor boat on the block, that kind of thing) it makes sense that we’re going increasingly crazy in our attempts to make ourselves as an expensive commodity as possible, to keep up with the Joneses, especially if Ms. Jones is a size 2. And it’s shallow (of course feminists can be shallow). And it leaves us emotionally empty.
And that’s both the feminist and humanistic issue that we need to explore more carefully. To what extent do we buy into the idea that we really need to achieve perfection or our lives have no value? Marx once said that religion was the opiate of the masses. I would say in modern society, idealism is the opiate of the masses. As long as we work to achieve some kind of perfection on a physical level, we’re not going to look at the massive problems of the world and how we can contribute to fixing them. We’re too self-absorbed to notice, too fixated on the personal instead of the political.
So I consider fat acceptance a feminist issue, and a human rights issue. The point isn’t how do we figure out how to better fit into a sick and heartless society, a society that insists on judging books by their covers, and then has the audacity to say that they’re doing it in the name of our health! I think we need to collectively figure out how to better NOT fit into this society, and therefore, have the strength and clarity necessary to transform it into something better.
so sad i missed most of this discussion…i dont argue that fat men have their own issues. but fat is a feminist issue because fat men and fat women are treated DIFFERENTLY. If you said “violence against women is a feminist issue”, no one would say, wait wait theres violence against men so you are being exclusive. Violence against men is as much a result of the patriarchal structure of society so yes its a feminist issue, but it is reflected DIFFERENTLY according to gender. If feminists, men and women both, addressed the treatment of women in GENERAL it would do much good for both genders with regard to fat acceptance.
furthermore, it makes me said to hear women saying that being a feminist is akin to labeling yourself as a victim. Just because you see injustice and you work against it, doesnt mean you can achieve and do things in your life. challenging the fact that women get paid less than men doesnt necessarily mean lets just give up on earning money altogether!
*Sigh*
Women, BUT NOT MEN, suffer economically for being overweight.
If for no other reason, THAT is why “fat is still a feminist issue”.
End Trans.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/05/28/womens_weight_found_to_affect_job_income/
Hi Jezebella
I never said you said that, in fact you said the reverse. You did say that saying that Fat is a Feminist Issue is not about who is the most oppressed (Fat men or women).
I answered that just about every “Fat is Feminist” conversation I have heard contained considerable comments on how much more accepted Fat Men are than Fat Women. It is a core component of the conversation.
As a 300 lb Fat Man I have had women 180 lb and less telling me how easy I have had it.
William
Hi Spacedcowgirl
I hope that my message did not come across as if Fat Women are not more oppressed than Fat Men. I am talking about social acceptance.
I help moderate a forum 98% full of Fat Women sharing their experiences and I know that most of them have suffered more than me. Still my observations from frequenting areas where primarily Straight Fat Men gather and I find that most seem more inhibited by their bodies than Fat Women.
William
William, consider this:
At what weight does a woman start being considered fat? At what weight does a man start being called fat?
I submit that society has a MUCH higher threshold for fat on men than it does for fat on women. Just look at the entertainment press: Scarlett Johanssen and Kate Winslet are considered “fat”. They’re not. When does a man get called fat? When he’s got a big ol’ gut. I’ve never seen a close-up picture of a man’s ass in any magazine or online with a headline saying something like, “Nicholson’s got cellulite!” “Philip Seymour Hoffman tells us he’s okay with his curves!”
Women’s bodies are policed, stringently, and constantly. I never see men in Weight Watchers’ ads. I’m telling you: fat men are discriminated against, but by cultural standards, you get a lot more leeway before you enter that category.
Hi Jezzebella
Once a person is fat the threshold of their gender really meaningless in how they are accepted and a case like me being 10.5 lbs at birth I was born fat and always have been fat and always perceived as Fat.
I am sorry but the weight problems of women like Scarlett Johanssen and Kate Winslet are not Fat Issues and unless either one of them have been well over 200 lbs they have no experience with being Fat and their problems may be a Feminist Issue but not a Fat Issue.
William
William
I see your point there, but the fact that the media makes the size of women that small into a “fat issue” sort of makes it a “fat issue”… if that makes any sense. Like, if women that thin are scrutinized for their weight, it translates to pressure on women in society as a whole who feel they always need to be just that little bit thinner to escape criticism and judgment.
When a culture agrees that a perfectly darling young woman of below-average weight is “fat” (i.e. Johannsen and Winslet), that affects the women in that culture. We all think we are fat the minute we realize we’re not built like Paris Hilton.
You say that a woman doesn’t have “fat issues” if she’s over 200 lbs, but that’s not where our culture says she’s fat. Who are you to say that a woman isn’t dealing with fat issues unless YOU think she’s fat? Hell, anorexia and bulimia are fat issues, when it comes down to it. Those girls aren’t fat but they are HORRIFIED by the idea of being fat. I call that a fat issue.
^ ^ ^
Jezebella, I’m not going to talk here anymore. I’m just going to clap and cheer when you talk.
Srsly.
Hi Jezebella
I do not think that society even puts people like Johannsen and Winslet in the same genus pool as Fat People. They have Size Acceptance issues but not Fat Issues. I recently saw articles where Ice “T” and Harrison Ford were ridiculed for going topless on the beach, they were said to be out of shape, but not obese.
I said that Johannsen and Winslet do not have Fat Issues and that unless one of them was well over 200 lbs then they have no experience on being Fat (obese). Because of muscle and bone size men are expected to have a slightly higher weight
I used 200 lbs because needed to pick a number but it varies with different body genetics and height.
Personally I feel that we should not dilute the Fat Acceptance mission.
William
Body Image is THE Feminist Issue: Blame Media
William, there are lots of issues in Fat Acceptance, and you are dismissing women’s issues as “dilution.” It’s not. It’s real-life stuff, and it’s the reason fat girls are less likely to graduate college, it’s the reason fat women suffer more from depression, it’s HALF THE FAT PLANET. Your refusal to acknowledge the different experiences of fat women is sheer patriarchal entitlement. There is room in Fat Acceptance for feminist issues, whether you wish to acknowledge that or not. Fat Issues have to do with race, poverty, nutrition, medicine, politics, and feminism, among many other things.
Until you acknowledge that, you are not a true ally to fat women.
Hi Jezebella
I am sad to hear you talk like this. I am not dismissing Fat Women’s issues, but I feel there is a way to express Fat Women’s Issues without minimizing Fat Male issues and their life experiences.
When Fat Women share their experiences I am the first to support them. When I read recent comments from people like:
“today men also are starting to experience fat discrimination” I am the first to be their to exclaim that Fat Men have been discriminated against for as long as I remember.
From the locker room at Elementary School as a boy to any adult locker room a Fat Man may be in, society’s views are present.
Also I pointed out that Fat Women do get more opposition, but that is not same as the acceptability of either gender being fat which is what I have focused on!
On the beach or on the internet straight Fat Men are far less likely disrobe then Fat Women. If it was more acceptable for Fat Men to be Fat then you would see far more Fat Men in revealing clothes or in public wearing swim-wear.
All I am saying to you is don’t edit out the experiences of Fat Men in your conversation.
Unlike you I will not say you are not a ally of Fat Men, but you have a distorted view of our experiences.
William
Well, I’m a feminist first, fat second. I’m not editing out men’s experiences, but frankly, I think you all do a fine job of representing yourselves already. You don’t need me to do that. I speak for myself as a woman. Period.
In our culture, the default human is male. It’s assumed that any conversation about humans is about men first, and oh, maybe women, too. As a feminist, it’s not my job to constantly refer to men’s experiences. I certainly don’t hear men acknowledging MY point of view in most conversations.
Your unwillingness to include feminism as one of the issues in fat acceptance is a typical example of what we feminists like to call “what about teh menz?” In which, if I say, “women experience ABC,” a man says, “But what about the men! So do we!” And then the women’s point of view gets squashed with lots of menz going on about how life isn’t fair because women are distracting people from the REAL issue, which of course isn’t anything to do with WOMEN, after all.
I remind you: women are half the fat planet.
Hi Jezebella
Let me say that I have no doubt that Fat is a Feminist Issue, but what you need to ask yourself is if Feminism to you such a huge issue that it cancels out the word Fat in the words “Fat Male”.
In your last post you mainly talked of males and females while I have only focused on Fat People (female and male).
You said:
“As a feminist, it’s not my job to constantly refer to men’s experiences.”
Too late you already have done this when you make statements that limit and define the experiences of a
whole other group of Fat People (fat men).
You also said:
….. FEMINISM IS NOT ABOUT MEN. This conversation is not about men. Not everything is about men, you know. I know that’s hard to swallow for some guys. Feminism is about women……
This topic is not only about Feminism, half of it is about Fat and like it or not Fat Men exist.
I think that the real question of this thread is “Is Fat Primarily a Feminist Issue” because of comments like these:
……..Why is it a feminist issue? Because only women are hounded for our weight 24/7 in every possible media venue. Because women are constantly being pressured to conform to fuckability standards – weight, hair, makeup, clothes, shoes, and sexual compliance are only some of the things that women are subjected to.
Men are not subject to these pressures to conform. Men are only considered fat if they are well over 50 lbs. overweight. Every inch of a man’s body does not have to be fat-free, sculpted, cellulite-free, etc. for him to be considered a real man. A woman with fat on her body (except breasts and hips) is hardly a woman at all…….
If the above is true then where are the Fat Men on the beaches, or playing sports without shirts, where are the fat men on fashion magazines and advertisements? There are not even Fat Men in Fat Male clothes catalogs!! How many fat male movie stars are out there that play fat characters that fight evil? Why aren’t magazines like Mens Health saying that it is OK not to have abs of steel.
I could say that in may ways Fat Women have it easier because women are suppose to fatter than men because they have babies, that having a fat butt and fat breasts do not effect Fat Women on the same scale as it does Fat Males. I could say that Fat Women have a easier time than Fat Males being described as a soft bodies.
Just as all politics are local and all feelings are personal. We can identify with what each other experiences, but we can not compare because we truly do not know what the other person has experienced.
The differences in the experiences of Fat Men and Women can not be explained in a sentence or two.
William
“I could say that in may ways Fat Women have it easier because women are suppose to fatter than men because they have babies, that having a fat butt and fat breasts do not effect Fat Women on the same scale as it does Fat Males. I could say that Fat Women have a easier time than Fat Males being described as a soft bodies.”
THIS is the crux of our disagreement. You are thinking competitively: your pain is bigger than my pain. This is NOT the way to think. MY pain is DIFFERENT than YOUR pain. Not easier. Oh, no, NOT easier. But of course, you think it is. And that is why you dismiss feminism.
It’s always ‘what about teh menz’ with you guys. You always think you have it worse. Always.
Hi Jezebella
The difference between us is that I was using those statements about Fat Women as a analogy toward some of the similar statements made by people here about the experiences of Fat men. I do not believe that any of those facts about Fat Women that I listed makes the experiences of Fat Women any less. Neither do I think that the experiences of Fat Women lessen the Experiences of Fat Men.
I do not think competitively, outside of conversations like this I speak of Fat People. Of course I am focusing on the Fat Male side of issue in this thread, I should say that there were also several other freethinkers in this conversation, but not enough.
The only reason that I am focusing in the Fat Male side of the Issue is that too much of the conversation here has been about minimizing the Fat Male experience. I am not the one that has been making the comparisons in this conversation and I have never minimized the experiences of Fat Women.
William
Wow, this has taken on a whole new life of its own hasn’t it?
As I stated previously I don’t think Fat is is SOLELY a femminist issue. That is where I was taking my umbrage with the discussion at hand at the time.
If you want to be technical, then yes, it is a Femminist Issue.
But is also a Male Issue
A Older person issue
A younger person issue
A Gay or Straight person issue.
Again, as I stated before it is a HUMAN issue.
That was the crux of my point.
It was my perception that this entire blog was about Fat issues first and foremost, not femminist issues.
Nowhere did I say “what about me” because I am a male. I simply pointed out, from a fat males perspective that we too have to deal with the same issues, the degree of which really doesn’t matter.
If as a community we are to ever expect to change the view of the world about people of size then we have to do it collectively, not independent of eachothers gender.
Fat is a Feminist issue.
Here’s what I see as the crux of the problem that MOST fat men have had, do have, and more than likely, will have in future with this statement. Left to stand alone it is-
OPEN ENDED and is easily interpreted as divisive.
There are examples all over the internet of the written word failing to completely convey a point. Perhaps this is one of those times. Shall we test it with a bit of emphasis on some of the more critical words and see what subtext that might bring?
A) Fat *IS* a Feminist issue. . . Despite the fact that it is, at best, ignored by the Feminist community or, at worst, denigrated with a viciousness that could almost rival a, woman objectifying, misogynists.
B) Fat is a *FEMINIST* issue. . . Therefore Males (fat or otherwise) have no valid or relevant input.
Both statements may be logically inferred, however I think we can all agree that ONE is more inflammatory than the other. As to that; how many times and in how many forums has this statement been made? How often did males (like myself) appear objecting, disagreeing , or citing examples of inclusive oppression. What’s up with THAT? Why does it happen so often?
Perhaps because, in the context of statement B) the statement IS competitive / confrontational. It says, or at the very least IMPLIES that the oppression of fat bigotry is (*exclusively*) a female condition. It says / implies; ‘We are claiming Fat as an active Cause and anyone not Female enough to be included need not apply’. That would make it appear not only divisive but actively exclusionary.
I’ve seen arguments in this very thread to the effect that this is not about who suffers more discrimination followed closely by examples of why X suffers more than Y. Well, perhaps fat men will have to wait until we are passed over (Been there done that. New Boss was thinner, had less experience, oh- and was female), paid less (Doing that one right NOW), or until the diet industrial complex comes after us. Although I doubt John Basedow and most of the other fitness based diet scams are trying to sell six pack abs to many females. Dan Marino (former NFL QB) crowing about how he got back to his playing weight with NutriWhatever? Can’t see that appealing to lots of woman. Well, ‘least men aren’t being convinced to mutilate their own bodies. . . . Wait, ‘pectoral enhancement’ does rival breast implants in some places and liposuction isn’t just for women anymore. Anorexia? Zero body fat + compulsive exercise. We don’t really need to discuss WLS, do we?
Tell you what, lets agree that it’s a sick, twisted world we happen to inhabit and leave it at that, shall we? As I think I mentioned earlier; There really is enough self loathing to overcome in the fat community without further subdividing ourselves and handing out even MORE unacceptable attributes / criteria that some of our number cannot change.
Hi B4C
I agree with so much of what you said. I think on one level Fat Males and Gender conflict in a way not many Fat Women can identify with and to have our experiences so easily brushed aside creates problems.
I have just downloaded this paper:
Body & Society, Vol. 13, No. 1, 107-131 (2007)
DOI: 10.1177/1357034X07074780
© 2007 SAGE Publications
Feminism and the Invisible Fat Man
Kirsten Bell
Anthropology Department at Macquarie University in Sydney, Australia
Hi B4C
I agree with so much of what you said. I think on one level Fat Males and Gender conflict in a way not many Fat Women can identify with and to have our experiences so easily brushed aside creates problems.
I have just downloaded this paper:
Body & Society, Vol. 13, No. 1, 107-131 (2007)
DOI: 10.1177/1357034X07074780
© 2007 SAGE Publications
Feminism and the Invisible Fat Man
Kirsten Bell
Anthropology Department at Macquarie University in Sydney, Australia
http://bod.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/13/1/107
It seems to be good even though Australia has some very warped ideas on fat and especially fat males.
It will have to yet to tomorrow night for me to read it, it is 26 pages of pdf pages.
William
I