Face! (Book)
Does Facebook, favorite social networking site of college students everywhere, represent a microcosm of society? God, I kind of hope not.
Alerted by reader Valdine, I went to check out this group, called “You’re not ‘full figured,’ ‘plus sized,’ or ‘voluptious,’ YOU’RE FAT BITCH!” [sic]. The gang at 3 Fat Chicks is trying to get people to report the group according to the Facebook terms of service, which state that users agree not to:
upload, post, transmit, share, store or otherwise make available any content that we deem to be harmful, threatening, unlawful, defamatory, infringing, abusive, inflammatory, harassing, vulgar, obscene, fraudulent, invasive of privacy or publicity rights, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable
Although Facebook does crack down on religious and racial hate groups, fat hate groups (like the elder hate groups discussed here; link via AmbivaBlog) are flourishing. I’m not suggesting that these groups should be shut down; I think the worst ones (like “let’s kill all fat people”) have been, and I’m more inclined to let people say their piece than be censored, where possible. Even so, I did a couple of searches and poked around and found hundreds of groups dedicted to fat hate. I found the specifics of these groups to be kind of interesting.
Disturbingly, while there are dozens of groups called “I hate fat chicks” or similar, I didn’t see one “I hate fat guys.” Sure, there are lots of equal opportunity “I hate fat people” groups, but I think you see my point. And on top of that, there are also more than a handful of groups specifically about how fat women are “allowed” to act and dress. A group called “Anti-fat girls wearing revealing clothing” has 624 members, and I saw groups against fat girls wearing leggings, fat girls wearing skirts, and fat girls wearing skinny jeans. There’s also a group called “Fat girls are sexually aggressive!” and “Fat chicks with small tits = JUST PLAIN WRONG.” Again, no group about what a fat guy is allowed to wear or to look like.
Yes, fat is indeed a feminist issue. If you’re not thin (or you’re fat but you don’t have the mitigating factor of large breasts) you’re not fulfilling your role as sex object of horny college boys, and therefore deserve to be excoriated on Facebook. And if you are fat, you’d better not dress provocatively, or publicly exercise (yes, there are groups for that), or do anything except hide yourself away and lose weight. God forbid you use your college years to explore the wide world around you, find issues you’re passionate about, get pissed off, get fired up, take a Women’s Studies class or two, and begin to look outside the world of your appearance, your body, and what boys think of you.
Here are some more Facebook groups: “Dammit, I Hate Fat Chicks!” “DISLIKES- FAT GIRLS WHO WEAR SKIRTS AND TIGHT CLOTHING” “Fat Chicks – Exercise or die!” “Fat people should go on starvation diets” “God d@mm!t I hate fat people!!!” and “If you’re fat…we aren’t friends.” A group simply called “I Hate Fat People” has 529 members.
Of course, there’s also the other side of the coin. On the more positive side, we have “Ban Fatphobia!” with 195 members (I joined that group myself; it would be nice to have more members than “I Hate Fat People.”) There’s also “AAARGG!! Why is it OK for Guys to be fat, while it isnt ok for girls” [sic] with almost 500 members, and the borderline “FAT GIRLS STOP TAKING FACE PICS ONLY!!!” by a guy who thinks fat chicks are hot. There’s also “FAT GURLS NEED LOVE 2,” “Fat & Proud,” “FAT REVOLUTION,” and my personal favorite, “Fat? Skinny? Society SUCKS MY BALLS.” I’m totally joining that one next.
I also enjoy the random groups I ran across, such as “I fucking hate Jared the former-fatass Subway guy,” “I think Star Jones Reynolds looks better fat,” and the (probably full of fat hate, but made me laugh) “A Fat Girl Fucked My Boyfriend.”
So there you go; the tip of the iceberg on Facebook. Do you use Facebook? Are you in any groups yourself? What do you think this all means, if anything, in the grand scheme of things? And are there any other groups we should know about?
[ETA: We now have our own Facebook group; join us, won’t you?]
Posted by mo pie
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You’d think with all of us who have reported that retarded group, it’d be gone by now… I wonder if that whole thing of reporting-TOS-violations really works, or if it really works depending on who get the reports and decide they agree with it?
Incidentally, I too wondered about that whole “fat chicks” side of OMG!EnemyFat. Because it’s really always about the women, and how men find them disgusting if they’re fat, bla-de-blah. Possibly it isn’t possible that a man may like a full-fledged woman. And let’s not talk about what women prefer. Nah. Always the ‘disgusting’, ‘flabby’, ‘ugly’ Fat Chick.
As a side note, I use Facebook because a good friend invited me to it (she’s in Norway, and it seems it’s all the craze there); but very few people I know IRL are on it, so in the end, I’m not using it much, and am not part of many groups. Some groups have such stupid themes anyway that I don’t really want to bother. I’d make a “I’m a misanthropist” group, but somehow, I bet it already exists.
Facebook has swiftly been swirling the drain in terms of quality. I really only use it to play the Pirate game. :) I’ve belonged to groups, but I never really participated in them… because most of the babble was pretty brainless.
Fat is definitely a feminist issue. I was blessed with being able to attend an all girls school, however when I left, I couldn’t believe how much our society hadn’t really improved. I hang out with people I didn’t know in college, and I notice no one bat an eye when a big guy’s with some skinny, pretty, and usually younger, woman. But when a big girl is with a skinny, pretty guy? You don’t hear the end of it! If the guy is particularly good looking and with a big chick, and the other girls want him, all you hear is a round of, “What the hell? I’m skinnier than her! He could do so much better! Blablabla!” I remember seeing a local band with a very good looking singer who was making the rounds talking to people after his show. A ‘friend’ of mine was trying very hard to flirt with him. But he ended up spending most of his time with a bigger girl he obviously had a thing for. All I heard that night was “OMG, I’m so much skinnier, he must be some weird chubby chaser, blablablabla!” …I drank alot that night. And made out with a gay guy for reasons only the tequila knows (perhaps to dull the pain of my lowered IQ caused by hanging out with such a person). But that’s beside the point.
Needless to say I no longer have many friends outside of my old college buddies.
I like Facebook (though I have complaints about its interface, and I think there are way too many stupid apps, but…) I do belong to some groups, but none has anything to do with body image. Except maybe “Equal Rights for Pirates”. No, not even that one. I mostly use it for talking to my siblings and people I already know, though. I’ve never seen any such groups on their lists, and if I did, I’d have serious doubts about whether I wanted to remain friends.
It is, very much, true that people are much more critical of an overweight girl wearing a tight T-shirt (say) than an overweight boy doing the same. I’m still battling the feeling that I shouldn’t be wearing sleeveless tops (and under other circumstances, these days, I mostly don’t feel fat).
If I’d come across the don’t-exercise-in-public groups when I was a teenager I’d have been mortified, but it wouldn’t have made very much difference, because that’s what I thought everyone was thinking about me anyway. I was almost permanently mortified.
I’m not saying that’s good, but I think it’s sadly unavoidable – and that young women aren’t necessarily sisterly: they can be part of the problem. I also went to an all-girls’ school, and we did not need boys around to inspire rude comments about each other’s physiques. I can remember being told, age 13, that I really should lose some weight before wearing “that kind of top”. (I and the top were a size 14 – US 10. I still have it. It still fits me and it’s perfectly modest.)
I have to say, though, that my husband, who was my boyfriend all through college, definitely falls into the skinny-pretty category, whereas I did not, and if anyone ever said anything mean about us, I didn’t know it.
I think on Facebook, sadly, the rules are the same as anywhere else; if you do not like the way people around you are behaving, or you consider them immature, you can either enter the fray – which might hurt, but that’s your choice – or you can go elsewhere.
But Chesney? I think in your position I might have accidentally poured tequila into your “friend”‘s lap…
I don’t allow myself to look at that stuff too often. It’s depressing. I remember when I first discovered Beth Ditto a few months ago, and thought she was so fabulous, and went to watch some of her videos on YouTube. Needless to say, there were scads of critical, scathing comments railing on her weight and clothing choices and overall appearance. People seemed to intentionally seek out her videos to watch them, and then write about how disgusted they were with her. What an F-ed up world this is.
I think the think I keep realizing, over and over again in many different contexts–and fat issues are no exception–is that it’s really easy to be anti-something. People seem to love getting their identities from being against things. It’s a lot easier to fight against something and take it apart than to try to create and work toward something new. People that join those hater groups are ignorant and cowardly.
This is the group I’ve joined:
Fat Chicks are H-O-T!!!! (15,000 years of history can’t be wrong).
I never thought to browse Facebook for fat negativity…I’m kind of glad I didn’t.
I have held out on all the invites to join so far and after posts like this I think I will keep holding out.
People on the net in groups are generally at their worst as their is no accountability.
Facelessbook?
RT
Not on Facebook, but I’m on Tribe which sounds like they are similar. Only Tribe has a lot of alternative lifestyle type groups. There are lot’s of fat positive groups on there.
Oh, and perhaps we should take the inability of the group’s founders to spell “voluptuous” as an indication of how worthy they are of anyone’s bothering with them?
The Facebook thing doesn’t surprise me, but it still depresses me to know that the comments I heard in high school and college are still being directed at women who did nothing more than not fit (literally) the current mold.
I do not use Facebook (and don’t intend to), and while I do think they can and should shut down the most vile of the fat hate groups, the Facebook example is a microcosm of the culture at large. The people who are willing to belong to those groups will spew their idiotic and hurtful opinions one way or the other. Assholes.
Oh, and perhaps we should take the inability of the group’s founders to spell “voluptuous” as an indication of how worthy they are of anyone’s bothering with them?
Good one, K! I don’t think these immature college kids are worth worrying about. One day, they’ll grow up and develop some critical thinking and a social conscience.
Or not.
While I do appreciate how reading the material mentioned about Facebook “fat hate groups” can be disturbing, disconcerning and down right painful, I have to wonder, why search out this kind of negativity?
As a large person, (6 ft 1 400+lbs) I can certainly get my fill of fat hate nearly everytime I go out the door, I don’t see the need to go searching for fat hate groups and then read their ignorant comments.
See, when we search out reasons to be upset, we are, naturally, going to be upset. Only when those of us of size decide that we reject those attitudes, and we refuse to allow them to affect us will things change. When we act like a victim, then we will continue to be treated this way.
And I view the searching of “fat hate groups” and the subsequent complaining about them to be doing just that, acting like a victim.
Additionally, contrary to popular belief, fat is not soley a femminist issue. You don’t think fat men are discriminated against? You don’t think we are called names, looked at like we are disgusting? You don’t think people don’t make comments about how a fat guy should dress?
You are sadly mistaken there. Its a common thing though, to internalize the hate. For years I thought BBWs had it so much easier than big men. I mean just look at the pleothra of BBW Chat rooms, BBW night clubs across the country, the relative ease a BBW has at finding clothes to fit ( now I will grant you the styles are horrendous and that is an issue) but as a big man, I don’t get those things. There isn’t a night club dedicated to just BHMs or Chat rooms. Casual Big and Tall barely carries anything over a size 56 pant.
But see, I was internalizing what I was feeling unto myself, a guy.
Fact is Fat and more importantly Fat Hate and Fat Discrimination is a HUMAN ISSUE, sex has nothing to do with it.
So let’s decide amongst ourselves that we will not give those who would wish us harm, abuse, ill will the satisfaction of even acknowldging their exsistence, let them hate, I choose to focus on the positive side of things.
Hey kids, thanks for the link.
xo,
Jezebella
Thanks for your thought-provoking post, Matt; it’s great to get the male perspective.
I guess speaking for me personally, I don’t feel like I’m “acting like a victim” by seeking out that information, simply because I don’t feel like a stupid Facebook group has the power to victimize me–it’s so blatantly puerile. I do feel, however, it is an interesting commentary on our society, and worth talking about. (If my Facebook-as-microcosm-of-society thing holds true, anyway.)
I think the experiences of fat men and fat women are indeed very different, and both groups face plenty of discrimination. But I think in addition to the human issue of fat hate, there’s also a specifically female component to it in many cases, in that female bodies are more often held up against a societal standard and judged–in the workplace, in everyday life.
I don’t use Facebook but I have been known to search out that sort of thing to look at it as you mentioned above Mo Pie as a microcosm, what usually astounds me isn’t the venom but the uh, I have yet to have enough coffee today, lax attitude towards such hateful behavior.
Generally that is what upsets me more than people simply being simple if that makes any sense.
Why is it so OK these days for people to be such absolute assholes? Why is it still tolerated for people to be so hateful? That is what upsets me.
I think finding those groups and people like them and making sure people know about it, and I will even say shaming these people needs to be done. When will we learn as human beings that hate is just not cute.
None of it is.
Thanks for bringing this issue out. Just so you know, I’ve reported the elder hate groups about a month ago, multiple times, and they’re still on facebook. I had a huge problem trying to get anyone to talk to me live when I called their offices as a freelance reporter “about to go to press” with the elder hate issue. No one has called me back. I’m waiting for a blogger to return from holiday late August, then we’re going to try to contact the press. Would you like this issue to be included?
Big Fat Blog had a discussion the other week on LiveJournal and pro-ana blogs. Apparently, people pissed off they couldn’t have Daniel Radcliffe-Harry Potter porn examined the TOS and thusly reported multiple pro-ana communities to LiveJournal. LJ responded by saying they weren’t going to delete them because something along the lines of “aspiring to thinness isn’t harmful,” despite the fact that anorexia is a mental illness which manifests itself as a desire to be thin and not a case of thin-envy.
It seems FaceBook is no different – anything anti-fat is condoned because everyone knows fat people just need a bit of social stigmatization to get off their fat asses and lose weight, right.
Sigh. I’m glad I don’t use it. I’m too old for this kind of high school bullshit.
Maybe its sad that I am not shocked about fat hate groups on facebook, but my mouth dropped open on elder hate groups.
Hate groups in general: do these people have any kind of life that they spend their time actively hating groups of people? It’s kind of sad, that the only way they can seem to prop themselve up is to hate.
“[…] sex has nothing to do with it.”
I think this is NOT true. I think fat people of both genders have a really tough row to hoe, but I think that specific issues for fat women are tied up in other people, or patriarchal society, or whatever you want to call it, feeling like they can and should be able to control women’s bodies and dictate what they should look like, occupy women with “busy work” like trying to diet and exercise into a size 4 and keep their bodies hair-free, etc. etc.
This isn’t really about my own experience as a fat woman because I haven’t personally run into much discrimination or obstacles related to my weight since grade school. But I think that gender issues just make being fat even more of a minefield for women. I’m really not trying to say “women have it worse” because that’s almost beside the point (for example, based on your post I’d say you probably actually have it worse than me in terms of facing discrimination as you navigate through society at this point in time); what I mean is that in my personal opinion it is impossible to deny that there is a gender component to fat hatred. It’s about men wanting women’s bodies to conform to certain standards, not wanting women to “take up space,” and a million other issues I don’t even understand. But it is very real.
I agree with spacedcowgirl; there is absolutely a gender component to a lot (not all) of the fat hatred out there. It is not that fat men don’t deal with rejection, shaming, hatred, comments, etc. But if you use the FaceBook groups as an example, you’ll see that there are FAR more “I hate fat chicks”-type comments and groups than “I hate fat guys.” Some people feel comfortable hating fat people in general; many others reserve their vitriol for fat women. It’s as though not being attractive enough to them is a personal affront of some sort.
I’m not trying to minimize the difficulties in finding clothes, clubs, etc. for fat men; but not recognizing the misogynistic aspect of some of these groups, comments, etc. is a mistake, I think. The rise of women-centered fat acceptance chat rooms, night clubs, etc., is a direct response to the very vocal, very direct, and incredibly prevalent attitudes toward fat women in our culture, not a reflection of increased acceptance by that culture. Fat women have had to create their own culture of acceptance.
Now, in all fairness, I’m sure that the isolation many fat men may feel, (lacking the culture/social network that fat women have created) is awful, and I don’t want to minimize the pain of that. But in the context of the FaceBook discussion and its application to the culture at large, I completely disagree that fat hatred is entirely genderless.
It’s as though not being attractive enough to them is a personal affront of some sort.
Word. Look at the vitriol directed towards, for example, women who shave their heads. Some men think that it’s our duty to make ourselves attractive to them and they become very hostile towards any woman who doesn’t go along with that.
The thing I’ve noticed about men who demand that women be attractive for them is that they are either narcissists (who must control everything in their environment to reflect an idealized image of themselves) or they are deeply, deeply insecure and project onto others what they feel they can’t have themselves. Doesn’t mitigate the annoyance or the prejudice, just provides the context.
And I hope that anyone who spends so much time hating another group, whether it’s fat people or the elderly, will get a taste of karma. As bad as fat hatred is, the elder hate really bugs me. Don’t those idjits realize that one day THEY will be old?
As bad as fat hatred is, the elder hate really bugs me. Don’t those idjits realize that one day THEY will be old?
Or even better – what if they ended up old AND fat?
Bwah-hah-hah!
You know, people disappoint me.
If I have to look a certain way to please a man then hell I guess I’ll stay single. I’m happy that way any how, less stress and less worrying about living up to someone’s craptastic standards.
And as for that thing about fat chicks with small tits…I want to bust the mofo who said that shit because I have small boobs and I haven’t had any complaints!
Found this blog while surfing. I thought I’d share that you have to fight even in the fat-positive groups. I had joined one and the mod added a ton of picture of anorexic women, saying that we need their images to inspire us not to be disgusting and thin. I fought back and said that the anorexic women in the pictures she added were people too, and that by insulting them and calling them disgusting, we were just as bad as the people who treat us like fat, stupid, ugly cows. I ended up leaving.
Fight the good fight no matter where you find yourself.