False Dilemma
As fun as it is to continue fighting in the comments, I thought I’d write a post about this issue instead, because I think it raises a few interesting points.
I never really used to post body shots of myself on the internet. I didn’t even realize I had this moratorium on it until I started looking for a full-body picture to post in the Fatshionista Flickr pool and found that I didn’t have any in my Flickr account! So when I went to post the infamous photo and realized that it wasn’t the most flattering one I’d ever taken, I had a moment where I almost cropped myself to look less fat.
Of course, then I realized that was the most ridiculous thing I could possibly do in this context. I go to an exhibit celebrating the female body, celebrating women who wore their fat proudly, who didn’t even have on any outfits at all, much less unflattering ones… and I want to crop out my own body. What a hypocrite, right?
So I posted it, with that title as a joking shorthand. And to be clear, I didn’t mean “I think I look fat in this picture” as in “I don’t think I’m actually fat but I look fat in this photo so please tell me I am not fat because fat is bad.” I meant it wasn’t the most flattering photo of me. (I guess I was using fat as a slight pejorative, but it was jokingly. I’m working on it. As Weetabix might say, I’m going to a camp.) Anyway, I meant to hint at almost cropping myself out of it, or not posting it. And let’s get real, here: in that photo, I could use a better bra. I could look “better” in that photo. But the point was, so what? What’s the worst that could happen? I posted it.
Anyway, some people told me I looked cute and whatnot, and then someone turned up to assure me I am fat in kind of a negative tone, and then some people responded to her, and then she came back to make sure I know that I am fat, and that she did not mean “fat” in a good way. (What is that about, the need to inform fat people that they are fat? It’s so weird.) But please note how her entire argument is predicated on the fact that when people tell me I look “lovely” or “fantastic,” they are secretly saying “you’re not fat.” The equation that fat = unlovely, unfantastic, unawesome… well, that’s clearly a logical fallacy, but that’s Melanie’s flawed reasoning, not mine. Hopefully not yours.
Anyway, I’ve been posting lots of full-body shots of myself since the whole Fatshionista experience, and it turns out it’s not so terrible! (Maybe one of these days I will find one where I’m wearing something other than jeans and a T-shirt.) And I think I’m less afraid of “what people will say” about me, because as it turns out, the things they say don’t really matter all that much! Because I believe I am a cute fat chick. I believe that Beth Ditto is sexy and awesome. I believe that my body is really none of Dan England’s or Melanie’s or MeMe Roth’s business. Beliefs like that make it easier to roll my eyes at the comments of people who think they’re going to wound and insult me, who think fat is a bad word, or a shot through the heart.
Posted by mo pie
I love reminders like this – because I spend most of my time in fat-positive spaces and I forget, even with trolls of my own, that many many people still don’t have the basic idea down that fat does not automatically equal unattractive.
Of course, that shouldn’t be a real surprise given how many people seem to think that fat is fine but TOO FAT (as determined by their personal aesthetics) is unhealthy and gross. *headshake*
You rock.
I love this post, and I think it needed to be said, but at the same time I cringe that Melanie think she had somehow earned this posted response. Fuck Melanie (I’m sorry, it’s late, and I’m not editing myself). Ian’s response was fantastic, as were so many others. You are lovely, physically and in so many other ways, and the urge that someone like a Melanie must feel to post a response such as hers speaks to such fucked up (sorry again) issues that they truly are not even worth addressing. Although, I guess with the state of our society when it comes to these issues, they are. So she thinks fat is ugly and needs to be pointed out. Fine. Done. Thanks, Melanie. Move along now.
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It’s interesting how the anti-fat thing is so ingrained in us…even those of us who *are* fat.
I clicked through to some of your photos and my first thought was “Oh, she’s not even that fat!” Oh man, that is so NOT what I want my first thought to be!!
Well, awareness is key, I suppose. We can’t change the rest of the world’s attitude until we change our own.
I love your honesty, Mo Pie, and I LOVE your blog. You are helping tons of women and girls feel good about themselves. Me included.
:)
I’m still laughing at The Rotund spending most of her time in “fat-positive spaces” (ie about ten pro-fat websites). Denial sure is a powerful thing.
Good post.
I read that post and didn’t think anything of the title, mostly because I’m a blogger and I know that when you have to write something on an almost daily basis you sometimes go for the easy joke. Labeling the post “Ironically, I Think I Look Fat In This Picture” was cute, kind of funny and probably something you didn’t think to much about before posting it and getting back to your life. Most of my blog entries are pretty flippantly titled. It’s weird then when someone takes something I’ve said offhandedly very seriously.
I think it is funny that people feel so compelled to post negative and intentionally hurtful things on the internet that they would not say in person. I also am amused that these people do so under the cover of anonymous comments and so avoid the repercussions of their ugly and unnecessary behaviour.
I did not get the impression that you were fishing for compliments in the original post nor did I get the impression that the compliments you received were anything other than sympathetic commiseration with the skewed ways in which our minds work. The irony of standing in front of a work meant to celebrate the “less than ideal” body and being critical of your own appearance. Perhaps the subtleties of this ironic juxtaposition are too great for some people to grasp.
Subtleties? Ironic juxtaposition? A fat chick poses next to a photo of even fatter chicks and asks her readers to assure her that she isn’t really that fat. Ain’t nothing subtle or ironic about that, St. Genevieve.
it always makes me laugh when people say “you’re fat” it’s like “you think I’m not perfectly aware of that fact?” so not only are they pointing out the obvious fact I’m fat, they also think I’m stupid enough not to have noticed? how am I meant to repond?: “NO! when did that happen?” oh come on
Melanie honey, there sure as hell isn’t anything subtle about you being an idiot – it’s called “having a sense of humour”
Mo Pie, first of all, you’re adorable. AND fat. What a concept!
Second, seeing all this play out is really interesting to me. To be honest, it makes me sad sometimes to see you seeming conflicted about accepting your body — but then, I think that’s where a LOT of women are, and your honesty about it is refreshing.
Third, you would be lovely in a burlap sack, but I’ll give you the point about needing a better bra in that pic. :) Fair enough.
Huzzah, Mo Pie! This is one of your most self-affirming posts yet. A great combination of hard fought and won self acceptance and the ongoing struggle every woman on in America endures daily regardless of size.
I thought the original post’s title was hysterical, and literally laughed out loud when I first read it. I know exactly what you meant, and didn’t think you were fishing for compliments at all. You must take with a grain of salt those who hate, are mean-spirited and rude, or point out the obvious trying to demonstrate their amazing powers of perception and/or their moral superiority. They don’t understand (because they’re not fat) or are in denial (because they’re not AS fat as people they think are REALLY fat).
Keep on keepin’ on, sister!
I don’t even need the grain of salt, at this point. She’s just repeating the same stale old statements that were dumb in the first place.
Kelly Cox Semple – Or what about “Melanie used to be REALLY fat herself and now she’s thin so she recognises denial when she sees it?”
Thanks for reminding me that I forgot the third category, Melanie. That rare individual who has been *saved* by weight loss and makes it her mission to preach to those of us who haven’t been *saved.* Like reformed smokers, drinkers, and atheists, the former fat folks who have overcome their sins. There’s that moral superiority thing again.
One caveat, though. Come back to us in five years. If you’re still at your lowest weight, you can then gloat about being one of the scientifically proven 3% of people who are physically capable of maintaining weight loss. Even then, don’t expect to make too much of an impression on those of us who have leared to live our lives well, whatever the number on the scale or shirt tag.
Melanie, what is your underlying issue? Do you really hate fat, or fat people in general? Honestly, you may be the most beautiful woman on the planet, but your ugliness is really starting to show. I may be fat, and that is my issue to deal with. Not that it really is any of your business, but you seem to take such great pleasure in pointing it out the flaws and lacking traits in others. What are yours? Surely you must have a few. Oh, no. I am wrong. Sweetie, you must be perfect. Right?
Actually, Kelly Cox Semple, it *has* been five years. And I do live my life well, thanks.
Rebecca – No, I don’t hate fat, or fat people. Just self-delusion, as in “Ooh look at me, if I pose next to a photo of really fat chicks, I don’t look so fat!”
As for my flaws, I obviously waste too much time on sites like this one…
for the last time THAT ISN’T WHAT SHE MEANT, unless of course you know what goes on mo’s mind better than she does
Mo, this made me teary. Very well said.
I thought the “Ironically” headline/pic was brilliant, and it cracked me up, because I knew exactly what you were talking about. It has nothing to do with trying to manipulate your friends into telling you you look thin (god, we’re not in high school anymore), and everything to do with hating the shit out of being expected to hate the shit out of yourself every time you see a full body photo of yourself (I tend to avoid them too…maybe I’ll stop that for a while and see what happens).
Arguing with the Melanies of the world is like trying to tackle some energy-sucking villain in a superhero comic. She’s not going to get the point because she doesn’t want to, and she doesn’t have to. She’s never going to see any of us face to face, or have to take any real consequences for being so relentlessly rude. If anything, her behavior only tends to prove that making weight loss a top priority for a long stretch of time can turn a person into a self-aggrandizing boor.
Of course, the good thing about comment visits from people like Melanie is that they give the rest of us a chance to sharpen our arguments and strengthen our solidarity. So anyway, good on ya, Melanie. Thanks.
Also, Beth Ditto is totally fuckin’ awesome! I just saw her perform at a Dolly Parton tribute show in a big blonde wig and skin-tight blue lycra. I wish I had that kind of moxie.
Better a “self-aggrandizing boor” than regaining 70 pounds!
Apples and oranges.
Hmmmm…how fascinating this all is. I stand by my original statement. You looked lovely in that picture. Of course, we are our worst critics. I, actually, did not mean to imply by the words “you look lovely” that you don’t look fat.
I wonder why it is that there is resistance to the idea that there are some people who can look beyond the narrow definitions of beauty in our society and find all sorts of people lovely. Their loss, I say.
Better a “self-aggrandizing boor” than regaining 70 pounds!
Really? Do you have any friends? Any sort of a life at all beyond being a shit to people you don’t know and being intentionally obtuse?
The best way to prove that you do would be by never coming back here. Just sayin’.
I think we get it, Mel. You lost weight and have kept it off, and regaining weight is bad, and I’m fat, and we’re all in denial, and everyone who posts here or compliments me is fat, and blah blah blah.
I mean you guys can keep fighting if you want, and I absolutely appreciate that you all have my back, but she really doesn’t bother me at all, nor should you let her bother you. (The comment I’m actually referring to was a personal attack and has been deleted.)
Melanie,
I’ve found that it is common in people who insist on saying mean spirited /negative things in a particularily hurtful manner they are nursing a bitterness and self hatred deep in their heart.
I know that you are thin now…and I’m happy that you’ve found a way to stay at a healthy weight.
Now that you have gotten the whole weight issue out of the way, perhaps you should chip away at that denial and insecurity in your heart…and learn how not to be such a bitch…
Hope you learn to love yourself.
-Rei
More often than not people associate fat with ugly. It’s like it’s in the blood. There are so many women who are fat but are absolutely gorgeous. There is just a horrible stigma attached to being fat and the sooner it goes the better. I mean, how are we supposed to concentrate on losing weight when we get snotty remarks when we’re at the gym of all places trying?
I mean, I loved going to the gym when it was quiet but when there are other people there they stare, they glare they laugh as the little wobbly bits jiggle up and down (or rather the large wobbly bits in my case) and if that’s supposed to make us wanna lose weight people have got to be on drugs, what’s the first thing we’re going to do? Run home to the fridge! Or at least I did.
I suppose what I’m saying is that if people laxed of the fat and ugly bit we could all concentrate on being ourselves, being happy and maybe get out o the viscious circle that some women are in…Depressed, food, fat, depresse, food, fat.. We could be happy, happy, happy…
Jade – you are right. There was a study I once read that talked about the effect of worrying about body perception on women. They had men and women take a math quiz in the clothes they arrived in. Then they sent the men and women in to change into a swimsuit. Then they sat them to take another different, but no harder, math quiz. Women’s scores decreased dramatically and women reported that they were more self-concious about how their bodies were being perceived and didn’t feel they could concentrate as well.
And they weren’t even being insulted. It’s a fascinating thing to me that people feel they are given full reign to insult my weight when they are otherwise “polite.” I think it’s still just plain rude and any adult should know better.
Better a “self-aggrandizing boor” than regaining 70 pounds!
Well, everyone makes their own choices. But I learned in 1977 that I had way more friends as a fatty than I did when I took the MD-prescribed amphetamines that turned me into a thorough-going (but skinny!) bitch.
So I made my choice. I learned to like myself as I was, and I learned not to let the demons of others become my demons. Believe me, if I was able to reject my mother’s pressure to conform, I would have no problem anyone else’s.
Forgive me, Melanie, if I can’t manage to hate myself in order to validate your own self-loathing.
Whatever is going on in the rest of the comments… I figure I’d pipe in to say that I looked through your pics and there ain’t nothing wrong with just jeans & a t-shirt. The pic of you and the boy on the bridge is adorable and the one with you and the shark made me crack up.
Viva jeans & t-shirts!!!
[i]Better a “self-aggrandizing boor” than regaining 70 pounds![/i]
Really? Poor character wins over poor adherence to your beauty standards and possible poor health?
I’d rather be smart than pretty, and I’d rather be kind than thin. Of course, neither of these is a real dichotomy – but if I had to choose, I know what way I’d go. To each her own.
Mo, and all those here who are not Melanie:
You rock. I got your back. (Sorry I was late to the “party.”)
The responses to my comments have been amusing, to say the least:
Melanie: I’ve lost 100 pounds.
Another poster: Come back to us in five years.
Melanie: Actually, it has been five years.
Another poster: [comment sence deleted] Then post a photo of yourself. I bet you’re really ugly.
Now Ginger’s speculating about my “possible poor health”. Ginger, do you really think that it’s healthier to regain 70 pounds (like Mary Garden) than to maintain the right weight for your height and build through a healthy diet and exercise (like me). Really?
Sorry, forgot to address the comments of whyme63. Sweetie, of course you had more friends when you were fat. Everyone wants a Designated Fat Friend they can feel superior to. But do you really want those kind of friendships?
Oh, Melanie. I am not really in a position to judge whether you’re healthier now than you were when you weighed 70 pounds more. Or whether Mary Garden is healthier now than when she weighed 70 pounds less. This is an argument in the comments of a blog. For all I know you’re a 15-year-old guy.
But even if I go on the conditions as posited – weight is not the be-all and end-all of health.
Is your basis for friendship really that you feel superior to the other person? If so, that’s pretty unhealthy in and of itself.
Is your basis for friendship really that you feel superior to the other person?
No, Ginger, I never said or implied that. I know it’s hard to accept but 1) I have maintained a massive weight loss for five years. 2) I am not ugly. 3) I did not lose weight in an unhealthy way. 4) I maintain my weight through a healthy diet and exercise. 5) I enjoy healthy, mutually supportive friendships. 6) Neither am I a 15-year-old guy.
Now someone is going to say I must be cruel to animals!
God, I hope not. This conversation is beginning to give me a headache.
Okay – I wasn’t going to get sucked back into this, but my name was mentioned.
Melanie: If you think my situation is so awful, why are you being such an asshole? Usually, when someone has difficulty with something I find easy, I feel compassion for them – or at least I’m able to relate to them based on the things in my life that I *do* find difficult. I would never in a million years barge in and tell them how easy it is for me to deal with what they are struggling with.
I guess my question is: are you trying to do something constructive? I’d really like to know. Your harping on my weight gain does nothing for me other than confirm my theory that most people who lose a lot of weight go through a heavy judgmental phase that they either recognize and deal with internally, or go around airing, with little human concern for the people they are trying to ‘set right.’
Mo – sorry for feeding the troll. That was the last time. mg
Wow. Melanie. Did your mom not give you enough hugs and assurance as a child? I’m glad you lost 100 lbs and kept it off for five years even in difficult times. Good for you. Now that i’ve given you your much sought after pat on the back… you can go away happy.
At the risk of throwing a dead horse on the table and smacking it with a baseball bat, I’d like to chime in here on several points. First of all, Mo Pie, you rock. I’ve been reading the blog for some time and I admire you infinitely.
Secondly, I was going to address the troll, but decided she isn’t worth the bother. She’s honestly just not bright enough to bother with.
That said, I have to take issue with some of the remarks regarding those who have lost weight. In the interest of full disclosure, I have lost about 60 pounds in the last two years. Yes, I feel better about what I see in the mirror, but I also feel better about the fact that my blood pressure is no longer on the verge of hypertension, and I no longer have the symptoms of pre-diabetic insulin resistance (My mom is diabetic, so there is a family history to consider), and I am in general in much better health than before. I DO NOT apply this to others; one look at my family’s medical history (diabetes, heart disease, high cholesterol, you name it, it’s there) will tell you that I see these concerns as very specific and not general.
I don’t know yet if I’ll be able to keep it off or not, but the idea that “There are times in your life when making weight loss a priority can come to seem like a pretty hollow choice” disregards many of the non-vanity reasons that some of us work so hard to lose weight. Sure, it’s nice to fit into smaller clothes, but I take care of my aging mother and frankly I don’t want to be dealing with her health issues in another 20 years. I know plenty of fat women who kick ass, and who could kick my ass, health-wise. But for some of us, it IS important to make weight loss a priority.
Also, there was a comment in the original post about making weight loss and its maintenance “central to their lives” in order to be one of those rarified 3% of “successful” dieters. Yes, lots of people ask me about how I’ve lost weight, what exercise I do, what “program” I’m on, and so forth. Honestly, I don’t think it’s anyone’s damn business, so I keep my answers minimal – I don’t wish to proselytize to others, and I’m not comfortable with the “guru/inspiration” role. Perhaps because I do know that the odds are against me in the long run, but mostly because I have so many issues regarding weight and body image that I’m just not comfortable discussing it with others and know that I’m the last person they should seek for advice. I understand why people ask; the change is visible, so it’s kind of like when people think it’s OK to touch a pregnant woman’s stomach. But I still view it as an invasion of privacy. (As it is with the pregnant woman, what is it with people who think it’s OK to pester them?)
Anyway. Mary Garden, I understand your points from the original thread and agree with them in the general sense. It’s just that I keep seeing these remarks about people who have recently lost weight, the attitudes about them, and I find it disturbing. Obviously I’m taking some of that personally, and I’m also hoping that I’m not one of those horrible people who judges others after her weight loss – I don’t think I am. Besides, I’m far from Nicole Ritchie over here. I still have a tummy and I like it just fine as it is.
“It’s just that I keep seeing these remarks about people who have recently lost weight, the attitudes about them, and I find it disturbing. Obviously I’m taking some of that personally, and I’m also hoping that I’m not one of those horrible people who judges others after her weight loss – I don’t think I am”
MizShrew:
I come from a more fat acceptance standpoint, and I do have issues with a lot of people who’ve lost weight, but not *because* they’ve lost weight or even because they want to lose weight. I *strongly* believe that these are deeply personal decisions – and in that way I’m different from some (but hardly all) people in fat acceptance. (My only caveat being people whose decision doesn’t seem entirely informed – which is, granted, a lot of people.)
But what bothers me about *some* dieters is a few very specific things they do:
1) only pipe up about their “success” when they’re at the low point of a yo yo, and then go silent with shame during their fat periods.
2) represent their past “fat self” in self-hating and fat-hating terms. (“I was a disgusting fat slob!” “I did nothing but eat!”)
3) attribute all positive effects to weight loss, without considering the possibility that some of this may be that they started exercising: (“when I was fat I couldn’t climb the stairs without huffing and puffing!”) or to their internalized fat-hatred (“I couldn’t stand myself! I was miserable!” “Now I can go anywhere unashamed!”)
4) become obsessive about food and weight and define this as virtue or morality – particularly when presented as one that others *should* emulate.
5) present their story as incontrovertible “evidence” that “anyone” can lose weight – as if anecdote trumps decades of statistical data, and assuming that everyone shares their specific physiology.
So those are just specific ways of constructing their experience that I object to, but it’s not the experience itself that I have a problem with. Everyone’s experience is different, and everyone has a right to their own choices – and that’s rather the point, to me.
Dear MizShrew,
You don’t sound at all like someone who would lord it over anyone for being thinner than they are, and I didn’t mean to paint you with the same brush as the visiting troll. My apologies!
I don’t have anything against anyone for losing weight or hoping to lose weight. I feel better at a lower weight, and hope to eventually re-lose what I gained, now that my life is back on an even keel. When I said that sometimes weight loss can seem like a pretty hollow priority, I was reacting to that flip, empathiless “I did it; why can’t you?” I was recalling being in a deep, seemingly endless depression with no loved ones around for support. If someone can and wishes to continue a weight loss regime during a period like that, there’s no reason they shouldn’t – but I wouldn’t expect them to.
It didn’t even occur to me I might be disregarding the different experience of people who lose weight primarily for reasons other than appearance, and I am truly sorry for that. I don’t get the sense that most of the people who use the word “fatty” as a pejorative and show no empathy for other people’s struggles with weight are primarily in it for health reasons, and those were the people I meant to address.
I think it’s awful that anyone would rather be rude or cruel than fat, or would rather lose an arm than get fat, or would blame someone for gaining weight…well…ever. I saw a tv talk show once where a 13-year-old girl who was afraid of her abusive stepfather was advised to find alternate ways of soothing her fear so she wouldn’t turn to food. That was what I was getting at when I said that sometimes weight loss can seem like a hollow priority.
Anyway, I don’t know if this clarifies anything (it’s 3:00 am, and I am getting a little rummy), but I am sorry for unintentionally making what sounded like a wholesale attack on people who want to lose weight.
I see–Melanie’s friendships are “healthy, mutually supportive friendships”. Mine are “Designated Fat Friend they can feel superior to.”
Interesting take on things, I guess. Well, I will do what she can’t seem to, and take her word for it in the kind of friendships she maintains.
‘Cause that really made me giggle.
I just wanted to say that I think Mary Garden and MizShrew both have very excellent, well-made points and I really dig this part of the discussion.
For me, in some life nadirs, *any* action to take care of myself has seemed like a hollow priority. That doesn’t mean it was, but it’s important (for me anyway) to remember that it takes energy to care for yourself, especially when you’re having to change your life, and that goes triple for changing something fundamental to identity like body size. Sometimes it takes a staggering amount when you just don’t have any to spare.
I guess I’m just trying to say that we all do the best we can, and whether I change my body dimensions or not shouldn’t be about judging you, even if it’s a change of which I’m proud.
(Also, I hope you weren’t hurt when I named you in my prior post, MG – it seemed innocuous at the time, but it wasn’t necessary and it was a little more personal than I meant my case to be. And also, I’m sorry, Editrices, for my part in the stupid flame war. This place is usually so much better than that.)
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