Oh Good, Now We Can Personalize Our Messages
The Old Navy saga continues, with the charming Ray:
Oh yeah, FUCK YOU MIA TYLER.
FYI, Mia Tyler, (Steven’s daughter) posted a call-to-arms on her myspace page. It’s for all the big girls to overload old navy with phone calls and e-mails because we’re removing Plus sizes from our stores. Do you know who answers those calls and e-mails??? ME! And I’m tired of it!
The decision was made LAST YEAR. It’s because YOU BIG GIRLS didn’t buy enough. You say that there’s a market for it.. BUT WE DIDN’T MAKE ANY MONEY. THE MARKET ISN’T AS BIG AS YOUR ASS IS. SHIT HAPPENS! GET OVER IT!
Fuckin A…
This just adds such a sheen of sincerity to those form letters they’re e-mailing back to us. All of those “sincere apologies” for our “disappointment.” Doesn’t it make you want to write a charming all-caps letter to Ray?
Posted by mo pie
Filed under: Celebrities, Mia Tyler, Old Navy
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Last time I checked, Old Navy, owned by The Gap, is a publicly traded company. That means they have one main focus: making money for their stockholders! If they could have raised profits by continuing to carry plus-size clothing in 50 stores, 175 stores – or rolling the line out to all 950 stores – wouldn’t they do it?
Of course not…because evidently their action had nothing to do with business. It’s a conspiracy against fat people!
The fact is stores of that scope and magnitude have a formula to calculate the amount of revenue every square foot of every location generates. If there was a demand for plus size wear at Old Navy, it would be there! But somehow Mia knows better.
And it’s not about business. It’s a conspiracy against fat people!
I was amazed by some of the comments made on another plus-size blog. Among them:
– My guess is they just didn’t want fat people in their stores for their “image.”
– Old Navy’s move comes in a long line of stores who think the key to appearing more “upscale” is to cater to a wealthier demographic. The fallacy here is that this wealthier demographic is thin.
– I finally find a few stores that sell some nice clothing in my size … and they give up on me. Now I’m pushed to the fringes of online and I feel insulted.
– This has to be an image thing with them.
– To paraphrase the Elephant Man, “I am not a chicken, I am a human being! And I have a waist!”
Old Navy makes a business decision … and that means they automatically equate fat people as poor insulted Elephant men on the fringes?
Ah, but some are saying Old Navy didn’t promote the fact they carried plus sizes enough! I had no trouble finding plenty of media about that fact including Top 10 lists, reviews, television features, and lots of newspaper articles.
I agree it’s more fulfilling to walk into a store and try things on rather than order from a catalog and hope the fit will be right. But aren’t there at least a dozen or more other clothing chains where women can already do that?
Empowerment means not playing the pity card. But when I read reactions like this, I can’t help but feel that for many fat women who ostensibly have raised their consciousness and self-esteem, victimization is still their “go-to” mentality.
— Daniel, a fat guy
Ray can kiss my fat ass. I have never shopped at Old Navy or the Gap, and I never will. Maybe the clothes didn’t sell because most fatties shop at stores with a little more class. Ray is a good example of the “standards” they have.
Daniel, I respectfully disagee with your statement. There are lots of other plus sized clothing lines that are doing quite well financially. From what I’ve read on this blog and others, Old Navy seems to have the poorest fitting selection of plus sized clothes. So yes, the decision to remove the line from stores may have been entirely based on the bottom line. But the fact that the company didn’t do more to make the product marketable is an indication of just how unimportant they consider their plus sized customers to be. Actually, I am going contradict that statement. By removing the plus sized line from their stores, yet continuing, to sell it online is an indication that Old Navy realizes that there IS money to be made in selling “fat clothes”….they just don’t want the fat people in the stores.
I’m curious to see what happens to their bottom line once the backlash over discontinuing their in-store plus line hits home.
Doesn’t Ray know it’s dumb to blog about work? He could get dooced if one of his bosses sees that post. It reflects poorly on Old Navy.
“Doesn’t Ray know it’s dumb to blog about work? ”
Apparently not, but I suspect he’s going to find out…
I’m fascinated to learn that according to Daniel, ON’s plus size line was so well promoted. I’ve been in the store several times and often didn’t even realize there *was* a plus line. And I certainly didn’t see any commercials about it, even though ON is a fairly relentless TV advertiser. Hmm.
Ray is clearly an idiot who really needs to have the definition of the expression “Dooced” explained to him. Too much of an idiot to realize that many of us “BIG GIRLS” enter Old Navy to make purchases for our daughters, sisters, mothers, friends, husbands, sons, boyfriends, etc., etc. How much of that business is Old Navy willing to give up in order to take back those precious(ly few) square feet of retail space? If we all said, “Bite me, Old Navy/Gap/the rest of their stores”, would they listen then?
Yes Daniel, it is a business decision. They made a smallish investment in a business segment that they really didn’t understand (as evidenced by the poor fit of the clothes) and when it foundered they didn’t appear to try and fix it, they just shrugged their shoulders and pulled the plug.
Plus-sized women want cute, good quality clothing at reasonable prices, and they want to be able to shop for those clothes with their smaller sized friends. It takes quite a bit of the enjoyment out of the shopping experience when you have to stand around the “regular size” store feeling all bored and conspicuous while your friend’s shop and then having them stand around the big girl’s store while you shop. Old Navy gave the impression of understanding that dynamic and that’s why this decision feels like betrayal to many in the plus size community.
My power is in my wallet. I will not pay for the privilege of being treated as an after-thought. I will not support businesses that are under the impression that I will take crumbs and be grateful for them. If they want my money, they will have to earn it. I believe that the word is getting out, and when enough people feel like we do, this crap will stop.
How charming. His mother must be so proud.
I can’t help but feel that for many fat women who ostensibly have raised their consciousness and self-esteem, victimization is still their “go-to” mentality.
Daniel: so instead of “acting vicitmized,” perhaps we ought to just nod agreeably and say, “Ah yes, it’s a business decision, we understand; we’ll just pay extra in shipping fees for the same product that other people can buy in stores.” Is that what you really mean?
I know you think some of the complaints are over the top, and no, I don’t think Old Navy is actually conspiring against fat people, but I also think the sentiments people are expressing here (and on Big Fat Blog and elsewhere) are still vaild. The whole enterprise of advertising is based on the fact that consumers don’t have businesslike responses to business decisions, they have emotional ones.
And as careful and strategic and nondiscriminatory Old Navy may try to be, they’re still capable of making mistakes, such as making too tentative a venture into the plus-size market, and miscalculating how people would react to their “online is everywhere” move, and so on. What’s wrong with letting them know how it looks and feels to us?
OMG A DOZEN OR MORE.
I’m supposed to be satisfied with this, when my thinner friends have hundreds of chains to choose from? No. Fuck that noise.
If someone hasn’t already, we should forward Ray’s remarks to the management of Old Navy.
Daniel, there are NOT “a dozen or more” brick-and-mortar (vs. online-only) clothing chains catering to plus-size consumers. It seems to me that you, and Old Navy, are making a few false assumptions about the plus-size market segment.
I spent many years in retail advertising, I can tell you that there are plenty of buyers and merchandise managers who have no clue what they’re doing when it comes to the plus-size category and who are still making the decisions. Then, when they’re stuck with a warehouse full of ugly turquoise-sequined mock-turtleneck tops, they assume that there’s “no demand,” when in fact they went the lazy route, assuming that the underserved plus-size segment will take whatever crap is available.
In the case of Old Navy, they only met the need half-way, and were disappointed when only half of the target market responded at all. Yes, as you say, it is a business decision, but it’s a lazy decision made with a lack of respect for the consumer.
Oh geez. I smell a dooce coming on. Bad move, Ray.
As for Dan’s comments, cripes. “[A] conspiracy against fat people”? I can’t even comment on that because my eyes will roll out of my head if I roll them any harder. I’ve reverted to the eye rollings of my teenaged years.
My Old Navy (downtown Chicago), they had an exclamation-filled kick-off with their plus-size launch. It’s got placement on the first floor and a clearance section. This Old Navy gets tons of traffic from both locals and tourists, and I’d assume that they sell decently well. But there’s really no telling.
It would have been nice if Old Navy had done better fittings. But have you talked with people of so-called normal sizes? Try on three pair of pants in the same size, and they’ll each have drastically different fits. Old Navy isn’t synonymous with quality.
Something else to consider is that stores like Rainbow Plus and Simply Fashions have for years provided inexpensive clothes that last for the one season they are deemed fashionable. Are plus-size shoppers still turning to those stores to get a bargain, never really getting into what Old Navy offers?
There’s no telling what’s up, but a business decision isn’t something to take personally. Boycott as you see fit, and spend your money elsewhere.
You know Daniel, I might agree with you if Old Navy actually put some time and effort into cultivating the plus-size line. Have you seen some of the clothing choices they threw out there for plus-size women? The clothes were down right fugly.
Repeat after me: Fat women will not wear ugly clothes no matter who makes them.
Also, their marketing was so poor that even my mom didn’t know they had a plus-size line. She’s a plus-size shop-aholic. Go figure.
Do I think that Old Navy is conspiring against Plus-size people? No. I think Old Navy never intended to have a successful plus-size line to begin with. I think they created line to appease us… throw us a bone… make their clothing line look more versatile and hopefully raise their profits as their stock is currently DOWN.
Had they spent time and effort into creating an amazing plus-size line and also time and effort into marketing said plus-size line, I might give them the benefit of the doubt.
As of right now, I really want to forward the myspace blog to Old Navy corporate and watch Ray get eaten by sharks.
Dan is right, this is a business decision, but the news is filled with stories these days about how well The Gap’s (who own ON) business decisions have been over the past several years. It’s been so poor, in fact, that they announced just yesterday that they will need to do some lay-offs. Perhaps, they can start with Ray.
I refuse to put up with someone telling me that I should be grateful that someone will sell me clothes at all. I refuse to put up with the idea that if a decision is made (either by a company or my government) that I should just shut up and support it. I have specific things that I want. No one’s ever going to know what they are unless I tell someone. That’s not being a victim, Dan, that’s telling it like it is.
Just an FYI, I just went on the ON website…standard shipping on an order is $5. If you find it doesn’t fit, then return shipping will run you $3-5, depending on the weight of the item. That’s potentially a $10 increase in the cost of an item that I might not even get the benefit of wearing. That’s not good for my budget.
— Kellie wrote:
> Repeat after me: Fat women will not wear ugly
> clothes no matter who makes them.
Kellie, I absolutely agree! After discussing this issue with my wife (also a fat woman) she was very familiar with the ON plus-size line. She concurs that the clothing simply wasn’t tailored right. It was big in the tummy, NOT big in the shoulders and bust. She also mentioned there wasn’t one place in the store where all the plus size wear was aggregated; you had to search each rack to see which styles were in plus sizes.
BethK, yes, all the marketing in the world won’t sell lousy-fitting clothing. As a fat guy there was a time when all we had available were plain blue jeans and ugly black pants. Then King Size Company came along and it was like an oasis! I prefer doing business with plus-size specialty stores; the mass marketers don’t seem to get it. K-Mart clothes LOOK like K-Mart clothes no matter WHAT the size.
If this guy is an example of the kind of customer service offered by Old Navy, good riddance to them. I mean seriously, why would you continue to shop for anything from this place, online or not, if this the reception you’re getting? Why fight for the right to buy ugly, cheaply made, poorly fitting, badly designed clothes? If that’s what they’re willing to offer to plus-sized consumers, spend your dough elsewhere.
I don’t shop Old Navy. Period. When I was wearing plus-sizes, I didn’t know they carried them, and now that I don’t wear a plus-size, I find their clothes to be ugly, poorly made crap.
I think “ugly, poorly made crap” is the key here. I am not plus size but I quit trying to buy Old Navy’s regular clothes after too many t-shirts that didn’t hold up in the wash, and too many jeans that were so inconsistently sized that I had to drag my ass out to the store every time I wanted to buy something. (Unlike some of you, I would rather shop online any day.) I went back to them for the maternity line — also not carried in stores, as far as I can tell, at least not the store near me — but it is such total crap that I am sort of horrified that it is legal to sell this stuff. I’m talking about seams that fall out after three washes, waist bands that separate even more quickly than that, crappy thin fabrics that look and feel terrible. All for the same prices as their normal stuff.
I’m sorry that things are so dire in plus-size land that Old Navy is worth fighting for, but seriously, unless the quality is significantly better in the plus-sized clothes than it is elsewhere, I think y’all should tell them to shove their crappy ill-fitting clothes, and send your letters to better retailers asking them to consider adding plus-size lines. Nobody should have to wear Old Navy’s crap, and nobody should have so few clothing choices that Old Navy is worth missing.
I think y’all should tell them to shove their crappy ill-fitting clothes, and send your letters to better retailers asking them to consider adding plus-size lines. Nobody should have to wear Old Navy’s crap, and nobody should have so few clothing choices that Old Navy is worth missing.
This is an excellent point, but I think letting Old Navy know about their mistake(s) in general is still a good idea — other retailers watch what the Gap does fairly closely, and seeing a big ruckus will, at the very least, make a few buyers at other stores discuss the issue.
WOW that guy is rude! Someone should ask him if he’d prefer it to see some naked “big asses” since he won’t take the time to reconsider and listen to the complaints. He must be getting a lot of them from somewhere so SOMEONE must want the clothing.
Well, I see he took his MySpace blog entry down and he also changed his occupation to CS instead of E-mail Customer Service, Gap Inc. Good thing I took a screen shot along with his pic and printed it out. I sent it to Gap Headquarters. They should get it Monday.
I saved the page as an HTML file if they need more than a screen shot. You know, just because.
SOOO funny. Now he set his MySpace to private. I think he’s scared.
Just FYI, I wrote a post in response to some of the comments in this thread.
Beth, I appreciate your suggestion that we write to other retailers but, my own woes with ON’s inconsistent sizing aside, Old Navy filled a real niche in the plus size market. I own a huge number of clothes from their store and, quite frankly, just the experience of shopping in the store was a huge boost for me. Because I got to be normal for one damn time in my life. Judge the clothes if you will but please don’t tell us not to be upset about the loss of the clothes just because they were ugly. I get that not everyone goes for that aesthetic but come on. Some of us have found some clothes there that are just to our tastes.
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As a former employer, they never cared about the plus line, it was poorly amde and never really fitted anyone correctly. No one should ever buy from that line.
The situation sucks, but I have to argue with the people who claim the clothes are the worst-fitting…Old Navy’s plus-size line fits me better than any clothes I can find at department stores, lane bryant, torrid, etc. because I have a big waist and no bust. I bought two nice dresses there for the summer and I’ve never looked better! It’s a shame I had to order them online.
Its funny I should happen to stumble upon this blog today. I am a size 22/24 and I need a bathing suit. Not some out of fashion old fat lady suit, but something sexy and supportive. I went to Old Navy’s site and was surprised to see that plus sizes were now online only.
As a beautiful big woman what these women are saying hits home for me. Our old navy never carried plus sizes, and the one time I ordered them everything was either too big or too small. I dont know when society will understand that we dont need different clothes than everyone else, they just need to make the ones they already do in sizes that fit the beautiful range of women that exist. I am tired of feeling like I am alone in this plight. I might be big, but for gods sake, I am lovely, and i’ve got a great rack! i dont need a bathing suit that comes to my chin, available only in sapphire animal prints.
Anyway, after reading this blog i am no longer considering ordering my swim suit from Old Navy. Remember ladies and gentlemen, you are not alone.